Posted by -LOCKED - [Jul] Storyline Rework/Adjustments

♔Desire♔ ~NSP (#36346)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-05-30 12:16:13
So, it's been brought to my attention that the July Storyline is VERY controversial; Whether you lean to the good or evil side of karma you probably had difficultly and discomfort with this series of events. I for one choosing the best out of the three being Menhit and was even tempted to select that on my evil side. The problem being what the event started on, we met Ape on goodish terms. He was slated as a god, the only lioden god we've ever met. Thing is it was innocent; He was mad because he didn't like his daughter's choice in boys something parents can agree with and teenagers can fight on or if you're a kid go eww. Right? So we eventually find the murder stone, and can sacrifice our lions. Not something currently done these days, but with the history of gods we can link that as understandable as gods often asked/demanded/were gifted sacrafices for their favor or appeasement. However, this last year everything went completely out of control with the storyline.

You see, as we were given a peak more into ape's realm things got really weird without really any explanation or subtext to go on. We go from a loving protective father, to a hellbent sexual predator. So lets list a few things WRONG with this storyline.

Tefnut is killed viciously, and not mourned over by anyone else but menhit and apolly and us. I would assume Tefnut has been with Ape for a long long time as gods often live long lifetimes, with his wife likely his ONLY companion for many millenia. Even if say he had a harem of females, Tefnut was the queen and therefore the favorite and partner of Ape. You never see any other lionesses or spawn of Ape. A lion would deeply mourn the loss of his queen. in the wild and definitely in an un-realistic setting such as lioden. Tefnut was loyal to her husband, and most of his beliefs right up until she died when she wanted nothing more for their daughter then to be happy as she once was with Ape.

When Tefnut fails, Ape sets his sights on Menhit; His own flesh and blood. So yeah, this isn't real life and inbreeding doesn't effect the game and while many users practice it to obtain their ideal lions they generally aren't going out and telling people they are inbreeding. Because Inbreeding is taboo, it's bad. And when it comes to Menhit and Ape is definitely not consentual. She doesn't want it at all and granted I think that if our own lions reacted that way most of us would probably not inbreed. In the wild, inbreeding is a rare occurance because males and females often leave the natal pride they start out in. Assuming their father isn't kicked out already and a new male installed on the females part. There's also natures method of trying to disable inbreeding which is making the scent of a familial member smell terrible compared to the sweet seductive scent of an unrelated partner.

Really the whole inbreeding and suggestion of rape is distasteful, and harmful to lioden. There are many family predators who have preyed on younger trusting members, some don't always make it out alive like I did. There should be a warning at the very least for this event if nothing changes. As for someone like me, it can be extremely upsetting to have to think about on a daily basis in July. It drudges up old painful memories, and if I hadn't been to counciling and faced my abuser I would've been at risk to entirely shut down on this game.

Why do I think the storyline should be re-worked besides the above? Well, I'm glad you asked! We're given extremely limited content on why all of a sudden Ape changed from what we knew. So lets start there; Ape is a god, sure ok but its not really suggested what type of god he maybe "based off of" like for example the greek gods were all related and married. But There's tons of history around that and its centuries old. Where as with Ape we're not sure how long he's been around and celebrated or what his entire lore is. It's quite possible he could even be killed or die naturally like Tefnut.

b) Fill in more of the Celestial, Skyward and etc Lore. What's acceptable, what's not acceptable to the lions of this age. Give us some Depth to go with that cringe.
Like how exactly old is Ape to think that marrying his daughter and spawning with her is ok? Is this a common thing with gods of Lioden? How Inbred is Ape himself? Why'd he all of a sudden become obsessed with breeding the perfect heir instead of continuing to be the good over protective father we all came to know and love. As well as the flirty sleeze ball, that had soul rocks pelted at him.

c) Rework the storyline entirely.
The storyline needs to be redone and refilled in with depth and well... STORY. I found myself wanting to choose Menhit and Apolly just from the sheer cringe when I figured out where the storyline was going. Having the one and only revealed Lioden God so far, is a HUGE chance to write an amazing story and to be honest I think you failed in that part. You can really make people enamoured with Ape, Apolly, Menhit and Tefnut with better writing and story telling. People often look forward to the story events compared to others, and I think it's about time we start getting more of what we're looking for. Give us a story we can believe in and get behind! Make us believe in the resolve of the lion we are supporting.

✘ I'll be more than happy to answer questions and add in suggestions! Thank you for your time! ✘



This suggestion has 78 supports and 23 NO supports.



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Edited on 16/03/19 @ 03:18:54 by a Moderator

Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Warrior
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Posted on
2018-05-30 13:19:19
a) Has already been solved: Link

b) This would be very nice, although I do disagree with your interpretation of events. Ape's powers and status are never clearly defined, similar to Apolly. Both clearly have mystic powers, but the powers they wield are not limitless - they need your help to succeed in their efforts and for most of the storyline they act without their powers. Also, the murder stone predates Menhit, so his murdering streak has been a key part of his character, although obviously it was never presented as seriously as in the storyline. And we know he has had an over protective streak ever since Apolly came onto the scene, however, I am honestly struggling to remember a scene where Ape was shown to be a good father to Menhit - we've know that they are related, but I don't think they've ever appeared in Explore together. "Flirty sleeze ball", sure, that is accurate when he isn't concerned with family matters. However I don't think the "good over protective father we all came to know and love" ever really existed.

c) I actually really like how the story goes - in theory. I do think that Ape as an unsympathetic villain is great. Ingame a third of all user lions are evil death lords ravaging the earth, and, when done well, villains which revel in how evil they are can be far more fun and interesting than sympathetic ones. However, better writing would definitely help the event, especially when the story is given more of a focus than in any other event.



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Edited on 30/05/18 @ 13:21:24 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

♔Desire♔ ~NSP (#36346)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-05-30 13:41:12
@Blue Pigeon Thanks, I didn't know that had been added already! I have removed it since it was taken care of!

If you have a better way to word it, you're more then welcome to add to it as I will gladly add it up there! When I say "Good" Father I mean in the sense he is worried about Apolly's intentions with her. No good father's want some ragamuffin running off with their daughter. He had some good intentions and concerns for his daughter it appeared initially.

But really by what your saying all the deathlords needed in the event was apolly, as he's a firelord and plans on ravaging the earth. As well as overthrow Ape and take Menhit as his queen. I mean that's every deathlord's dream is to over-throw their rival, take over their kingdom/land and lay claim to the former's women and daughters. There wasn't really a need for Ape to go overboard, I mean at the very least if you want a more neutral evil Ape could've front paw selected Menhit's mate and arranged a marriage she didn't want. I think its extremely rare that deathlords have a kind queen that they would kill after giving them a suitable heir. Not any that I've heard of, most also have evil queens so abuse wouldn't be prevalent Usually from my experience, when you finally get a suitable heir male or female it's usually towards the end of your king's life time and unless you're consistently having good luck with breeding its rare for inbreeding to occur as well, as not every lioness/lion would have the traits you are seeking. Especially if you buy lionesses every now and then that do have traits you want. That further dilutes the genepool risk of inbreeding.



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Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Warrior
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Posted on
2018-05-30 16:38:09
I think you may be overthinking things a bit. What we knew about Apollyon from before the Storyline was that he was challenging Apedmak in some way, had some mystical power of his own, was flirting with his daughter Menhit and both of them were comfortable with each other to have a snuggle and appear in 2 separate encounters in Explore together. In contrast, we never see Apedemak with his daughter in Explore, although there is a scene where he is searching for her. Now Apollyon isn't harmless - when you bow to him he states that "he might spare you when the End is near…" - however this does not necessarily mean that he was going to bring the end of the world (heck, he seems to be enjoying his private time with Menhit too much) and I suspect he was purposefully made vague to allow for his character to be developed either way - which eventually made him to be the 'righteous' challenger to a tyrannical Apedemak, which I have already demonstrated is not too out of character for the celestial lion.
This is all based on what previously occurred in past Julys, and is a far better source to argue for or against the content in the storyline.

I also think that you have misinterpreted how Apedemak's pride works in the storyline. Tefnut is not his Queen, but one of the wives in his harem. If she dies he still has plenty of celestial lions to make suitable cubs with. Menhit as well is never stated to be Apedemak's heir - she is just his daughter, nothing more. I also feel that you are a bit wound up about a royal family, when this an idea propagated by the user base. This is why Queen suggestions (where a single lioness gets certain privileges/responsibilities) have consistently been rejected or ignored. You may choose to role play your lions with a royal family and a range of different roles and relations with similar kingdoms where trade happens, but this is not how the site wide lions operate. Apedemak is not a King, he is the dominant male in a pride of lionesses. He is not concerned with having an heir, but rather with his own genetics, and he angrily pursues lions who get close to *his* lionesses and may breed with them. If you use this perspective to examine Apedemak's actions, then it makes a lot more sense.



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Edited on 30/05/18 @ 16:40:52 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-06-13 14:58:36
Here's my problem with the July story...
Apedemek was originally introduced as an eccentric narcissist, not evil, but possibly nuts and kinda comical in that sense. Apedemek was always a little weird but he did just seem concerned about his daughter dating his enemy.

Apollyon seemed more like he had mixed motives. Another egotist who added more mysticism with his powers to the original lore...

And the introduction of the story made it sound like apedemek needed to figure it how to save his kingdom.

There were sooo many directions this could've taken. Apollyon and Apedemek are rivals and menhet is stuck in the middle, Apedemek blaming Apollyon for the trouble in the kingdom and it turns out its something or someone else and Apollyon is innocent, even menhet trying investigate and something happens to her and those two take different approaches to saving her, sooo many options, so many directions whether it was simplified or complicated ....

Why was this story chosen? Its taking themes that are really sensitive, questions player morals, and totally puts the whole "apedemeks kingdom s in trouble" for "Apedemek is trying to rape his daughter, murdering his pride members, etc..... for what exactly? Is it even fully explained why he needs to do this...? And the explanation given makes no sense.



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Edited on 13/06/18 @ 15:02:56 by Phantom StarsX (#92256)

LittleAntler [BLM] (#30151)


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Posted on
2018-06-13 15:04:57
I really liked the July storyline in terms of complexity, but content was definitely disturbing. By far one of the most disturbing options available was when Apedemak was attempting to do terrible things to Menhit, one of the options was to just watch. I think that whole section of the storyline was in poor taste. I could handle Apedemak being a murderer or a narcissist, but a rapist? It makes me ill, and I really want that to be editted in some way.



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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-06-13 15:16:40
Yeah even if it isn't a total rework, I think it needs to at least be tweaked in at least a few ways.



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Skullface ☠️ (#47620)

Dreamboat of Ladies
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Posted on
2018-06-13 15:19:01
I'm glad i'm not the only one who was put off by the July story. ;w;
I don't have any complaints about how the story was written or anything, but I want to share my personal two cents on the content of this story line. So long story short, I think the addition of the whole Aphy trying to move in on Menhit was an unnecessary and mean spirited aspect of the story line. Though obviously I get the purpose of it as being a testament to people's breeding practices.

Also, it's just.. it's not my place to decide what Aphy's character is like, but he never came across as a horrible rapey creep before the new story line, just a morally grey narcissistic god. And it seems that in the endings where he's stripped of all of his power hes horrified by his own actions and apologetic to the player like he was possessed by the whispers he was absorbing into his body, but there isn't much of that hinted at throughout the story which makes it just seem to come out of nowhere at the end. I think Xy was /trying/ to have him come across as a being someone doing the wrong thing for the right reasons and someone who is possessed (literally or figuratively) by his passion to save his kingdom, but it doesn't effectively come across that way.



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Edited on 05/07/18 @ 12:18:10 by Skullface (#47620)

Skullface ☠️ (#47620)

Dreamboat of Ladies
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Posted on
2018-07-05 12:20:16
Wanted to chime in after reading the changes to the dialogue and writing for the event. And my response is just .

No spoilerino for those that haven't read the wiki, but i'm very satisfied with the subtle changes and very key details added.



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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-06 17:07:19
Yeah, I am a little more comfortable with some of the dialogue changes and explanations, moving forward I'm probably a little more ok with event (except I'm still not sure why the rivalry between apedemek and Apollyon isn't really a factor in the story) but I'd still be open to a revamp so I will keep my support up even though I'm a little more neutral I still think it took a couple of extremes it just didn't need to.

and I still hate the light it paints none CL breeders into.


Actually no I still think it needs to be redone this is too many extremes and still covers topics that you can't even discuss in the chats, literally it's against its own rules and it's infuriating.



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Edited on 28/07/18 @ 18:27:07 by Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)

Resurgent
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Posted on
2019-02-15 08:41:55
Even though this suggestion has been inactive for quite a bit, I'd like to leave my thoughts all the same. I've been thinking about this suggestion for days now, and I'm reading wiki's Civil War at the same time as I write this, so please bear with me because I'm afraid this is going to be a long, long reply.

I was around for at least one July event before the storyline was implemented, and Apedemak always seemed to be slightly mad, capricious, and very controlling over his daughter Menhit to me - which is never good and healthy in my opinion, no matter how much you want to paint it as a overprotective, concerned parent. At the time, all we were told was that lions sacrified in the Celestial Stone would return next year in the form of falling stars/meteorite shards, and we also cannot forget about the "Wish Upon a Falling Star" mechanic, where Apedemak literally raffles away a lioness of his own harem for fireflies - there is no immortal-born, deep attachement from Apedemak towards his harem, if this is any indication, and then the storyline was launched in 2017.

In it we get some vague explanation about Apedemaks's motivations; the Celestial Kingdom - where Apedemak and his harem reside most of the year - suffers from some kind of cyclic cataclysm that makes the place literally fall appart, causing the meteor showers in the earthly world where our own lions reside, a destruction that Apedemak patches up as he can with the whispers/lion souls he gathers while he visits, as told by Tefnut, who is, as far as I can tell from actual dialogue and narrative, just a member of his harem, so she is neither his queen nor his only companion: there are other Celestial lions around, as the event raffle shows, but we simply don't see them portrayed in the storyline.

I must confess I'm confused by the reasoning in the opening post. On one hand, there is this understanding that these lions are "gods" and as such aren't bound by mortal morals regarding the sacrifices part, but then when it comes to the inbreeding part it's "taboo" and "bad". In many polytheistic religions gods keep relations with their own relatives, and even in ancient societies like Ancient Egypt endogamy was a very common practice, with Pharaohs marrying their sisters and daughters to legitimate their power. Then, there's the part where Menhit is unwilling. There are so many ancient gods that didn't care if a person was willing to have relations with them, you only need to look up at some of Zeus escapades.

Please take into account, I'm not justifying these occurences as a "this would totally be fine for real", but viewed with some "ancient mythology" lenses they aren't out of the norm, and I personally think it's a great modernization of ancient myths, with the female gender being heard for a change instead of simply being a decoration or a prize for males to fight over or overpower.

Because you see, this storyline is a mix of ancient mythology, modern views and actual Lioden gameplay. How many players have killed one of their lionesses because she didn't birth what they wanted when they wanted it, in a fit of rage? Or got rid of her because she wasn't fertile anymore and as such didn't need her, or because they needed room, ect. Following the storyline, Apedemak is trying to breed some sort of super-Celestial lion that he hopes will be able to fix his kingdom for good, and once his breeding projects with Tefnut fails, he turns to Menhit - who he has created with lots of selective breeding. As far as I know this is a standard gameplay strategy for many, and that's where the humorous part of the storyline comes from in my opinion, because it reflects perfectly two sides of the comunity: those that are really attached to their lions, and those that aren't.

So no, I don't support a July event's overhaul to wipe the current storyline. I'd love to see it expanded, perhaps have other Celestial or Firelords like Apollyon introduced, get an actual explanation of what the whispers are doing to Apedemak, but as far as I'm concerned it's a powerful storyline that has mixed its separate parts to create something amazing. It's great that you sympathize with Menhit and Tefnut - that right there is the markings of a good story -, but to take it away because the antagonist thinks the ends justify the means and we get a glimpse of it would be kind of sad.

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Edited on 15/02/19 @ 09:28:56 by Berenos (#84593)



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