Posted by [Dec] Improvement direly needed

Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:37:46
The December event wasn't very fun, it wasn't exactly awful but it wasn't very rewarding for what we were expected to do in the first place. This is for possible improvements, so spitballing is appreciated, no arguments. I'll be updating this as things change/ideas are thought out.

To preface: I do not hate this event, I don't hate the idea, I just would have enjoyed it more if the execution was better

Don't support these fixes? Let me know why, your idea might be good too, hell it might even be better! Let's talk, we both want Lioden to be the best it can be.

We'll start with what was GOOD about the event:

-The gifting/pooping concept was fun
-General decor/stuff in the mantis shop
-The bars to open the store was very well balanced and very fair, a vast improvement from the October event, and I'm glad to see that the data from October has been useful
-I absolutely love snuhlions even if they are bizarre and entirely useless
-The advent calendar
-The encounters in explore. I love the leggy felis, please give me leggy felis decor.
-Community effort (to a degree)

What was just plain bad:

-The absolute, dismal lack of event currency in explore (continue reading before typing up a comment about alternative methods to get stink bugs)
-Gifting/pooping having a karmic slant
-Poop not guaranteeing stink bugs, even one, coupled with the chances of getting one from a shit pile being as low as it is
-Heavy reliance on RNG and user assistance
-(By 109872 - The message after pooping implies you're an awful person, and it has more negative effects than staff things (click for more detail)

Why the pooping and stink bug issue was, well, an issue:

Event currency is not supposed to be super easy to get, but games are supposed to be at least a little fun, and trying to get stink bugs was akin to pulling teeth. Within a week, I was already fed up of the event, and had all but given up, because I knew no matter what I tried, the reward would not be satisfying enough for the effort.

Stink bugs being hard to get in explore made the site reliant on other users to "provide" stink bugs, and there's a number of issues with this and how it was executed:

-Pooping was made out to be a bad thing, and didn't indicate it gave event currency. The flavortext for leaving shit was incredibly negative, suggesting you should stay anonymous, should you choose to poop and not gift. This coupled with it not being made clear at all that poop gives stink bugs, the event was already heavily slanted towards the userbase not giving enough shits for the reward to be satisfying at the end of the event. Just in general, relying on your userbase to be the main source of event currency is a poor idea. That should have been supplementary at most.

-The shockingly low chance of getting stink bugs from poop was incredibly frustrating. I would say that it came to less than a third of chance to get a single stink bug from a shit pile, and if you didn't have valuable things to give away on the forums (more about this later) then the chances of you getting many shits to dig up is unlikely.

-Players felt the need to give away valuable items/an absurd amount of GB in order to JUST MAYBE get enough event currency. There were multiple users offering 100+GB in value in hopes of getting poops, that even then would only MAYBE give them a stink bug. When your event is that hard to get any kind of result from, your system is broken, and it needs to be changed. This wasn't just a few users deciding to do this out of fun, it was a huge thing, and too many people felt stressed about the lack of currency for this system to be actually functional. This event ended up "Pay to maybe win sort of" instead of being a community event.

Pooping and gifting shouldn't have been karma based. Why is giving holiday currency bad karma? This is heavily suggesting the staff didn't want the players to provide a shot at getting stink bugs, coupled with how hard they are to get in explore, there's not many other ways to view it. Punishing people that want to have good/neutral karma for actually helping people get event currency comes across pretty shady. There wasn't even any direct money-green esque tinfoil hat conspiracy garbage that could be pulled from it, since pouring USD into the game wouldn't give you stink bugs.

More may be added.

Regarding why having such a main user-assist focus just didn't work this event:

-The low chance of stink bugs. No matter how much people came together, the low chance of getting event currency was atrocious and held the event back. The reward at the end of the even is tier 3 and being able to buy applicators - something that just wasn't a reality for a good portion of players, even if they could dedicate an absurd amount of hours to the game - which brings me to my next point.

-This event punished those who couldn't play all hours of the day. Stink bugs being hard to get meant that an absurd amount of time each day would have to be put into the game in order to get a less than satisfying amount, if you wanted even a workable amount of stink bugs, you needed to be around a LOT. I actually experimented with this - I didn't touch my sideblog much RE exploring, but did more on my main. The results were exactly what you'd expect, someone that couldn't dedicate all the time in the world just wouldn't get a workable amount of event currency. I'm pretty much housebound bar rare visits and trips out, and I still struggled.

-Relying on your userbase for something as big as this so incredibly unwise. Have faith in your userbase, but don't put your userbase's enjoyment and reward in other people's hands. Have faith in your userbase, don't blindly trust it. User contribution to events such as this, where the main currency and reward is resting in the balance, should be supplementary at most. A way to get bonus currency and maybe help you hit that last stretch goal for the decor/apps you wanted. Making it the main/equally as influential is a bad idea that's guaranteed to cause dissatisfaction.

This is only SOME of the concerns I could raise, but these are the main ones. Now, since this is a suggestion forum, and not somewhere to just be critical, I do actually have some solutions that could be fleshed out to combat the issues brought up.:

-Have stinkbugs be more frequent and not massively userbased. Just have stinkbugs show up like they do in the other events, and have user interaction be supplementary on that front.

-If you want user assistance to stay a main feature, improve stink bug chances on shitpiles. Have most shitpiles guarantee at least one stinkbug, and have a rare chance of getting between 2-3, and have a fairly low failure rate that result in getting 0. This doesn't 100% guarantee every shit will have a stink bug, but you're also not screwing the userbase over.

-Don't make gifting/pooping karma based. This was just a bad idea overall. If you WANT there to be a karma element to the event, this wasn't the way to do it.

-Make snuhlions karma based instead! They would need to be changed up, but snuhlions could be karma based! You could build a snuhlion in someone's den, or knock one down, and gain a stink bug either way - essentially the same thing as stomping/chasing locusts in the september event, but with snuhlions. That way you can still see the majestic shitshow you construct, but it actually has a use.

-Be more upfront about pooping. Make it more obvious pooping has a shot at leaving the player stinkbugs.

-Leggy felis decor please and thank you

-(Thank you 60326) The poop message should be funny, not harsh. This whole event is a joke, there's no reason to harsh the vibe that much. Make a joke comment about it, lighten up!

More will of course be added as time goes on.

No idea how to sign this off so just. Gestures.




This suggestion has 94 supports and 16 NO supports.



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Edited on 25/12/17 @ 18:55:29 by Louse (#125435)

Aconitira #B@H πŸ’™ (#102117)

Maneater
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:45:38
I found this event quite fun and even disappearing for 2 weeks i was able to get 400+ bugs not including the poop. The currency is supposed to be difficult to get to keep the items rare ^.^ this is the hardest event of the year and theres nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I still found it very fun with lots of new things added this year as to what ive been told about last years :)

if that makes any sense at all? lol so ill have to no support but thats just my personal thoughts :)



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Roaming
TigressXyless (#23302)

Nice Guy
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:47:53
I have actually found it much easier to get event currency this time around than last but do support the other changes!



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a-damn (4.1k Ice) (#109872)

Usual
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:49:17
I love how many times you mention "Leggy felis decor"



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Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:53:36
@AcoNOELtira (#102117) - That makes sense! i did cover that events aren't meant to be easy, but leaving people behind has been an issue and is a little slanted rip. Items are still kept rare also, it's just a little sucky being able to pay all day because you're housebound and getting less than 120 stinkbugs without poop, when i october i got about 900+, it's a very stark contrast. The point is also that the event shouldn't rely on the userbase's goodwill, which I'm glad it worked out for you, but it doesn't for everyone. Maybe have pooping be a more limited thing if stinkbugs are in explore? As in you can only poop x amount of times per day?

@Roastin ChristmasTigressXyless (#23302) - I wasn't here last year for comparison, but with how difficult it was this year and with events still being new last I can imagine that this is a hefty improvment - which means the staff have the capacity to improve more each year (which is better than most pet sites can say for themselves).

Most important thing though: gimme leggy felis decor

@PastHorizon (NO POOP) (#109872) It's good art. Xylax did good on that one.



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Edited on 25/12/17 @ 17:55:26 by Louse (#125435)

Cosandk (#103750)

Demonic
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:54:15
As someone who literally has played every chance ive gotten (which is a lot) I just barely got 200stb to buy a few things, and even then, it wasnt the best.
Most of my bundles were shits and i got maybe 10stb from over 100 bundles?
I never even knew poops/gifts were karma based???
i wouldve pooped a hell of a lot more if i did because my king is evil?? i mainly gifted this year???
I wondered why my title rose



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a-damn (4.1k Ice) (#109872)

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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:56:37
Louse, the amount of times you mention it though XD Really made my day, honestly. Especially the name you've given it! Leggy Felis Decor



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Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:57:14
@Cosandk - The Scrooge of Lions (#103750) - communication wasn't the event's strongpoint. And yeah, I had about 50 or so stink bugs remaining from buying one applicator, and from 380 bundles (about only 40-45 of which were gifts) it took me up to 120 odd. My title was wonky as well, which was frustrating, so just removing pooping/gifting being a karma thing would fix a big issue with the event.

@PastHorizon (NO POOP) (#109872) - I really hope that if by some miracle it DOES get added, it gets that name. @ Staff please



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Edited on 25/12/17 @ 17:58:58 by Louse (#125435)

B i i 🐝Clean
Rhodo Ridge (#70825)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:57:18
While I feel December has every right to crank up the event-anti to hard mode, I will agree mostly because of certain points:
-The karma thing-
You have NO idea how faithful certain players are to their Good/Evil karma! People would flat-out REFUSE to gift/poop because they couldn't bear to gain/lose any more karma! If this were removed, maybe we'd have a much easier time filling up that gift meter!

-The Snuhlion thing-
While I personally would never destroy one of these beautiful creations, the choice to knock down snuhlions like a buncha bullies kicking down a poor kid's sandcastle seems utterly pointless...-which is PERFECT for negative karma perks!



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Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:00:08
@B i i 🐝 merry! (#70825) - Agreed, the karma thing changing might actually fix the event for the most part itself with just some numbers being moved around re explore stink bugs. I had someone come to my pooping thread and proudly announced they'd gifted instead, and iirc their king was on the good karma path.

witness my evil king kick down a snuhlion and feel worse about that than killing fodder lionesses (also, I freakin love your icon)



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Cosandk (#103750)

Demonic
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:03:27
Exactly! Im a player who plays like my king is an actual animal - his karma = his personality. If i start giving him evil karma, im keeping it as evil as possible. Im not a fan of the whole gift and poop thing being karma...

This was my first year on here (i start jan 7th, two days after my birthday) and between my side and main, my main had just under 150 bundles and my side had 20 max.
I got 0 bugs from my side and 10 on my main.... that doesnt seem right to me.. and just shows that you really cant rely on poops for currency..



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Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:07:14
@Cosandk - The Scrooge of Lions (#103750) - My king's karma is very much tied to my lore, so having it go up and down as I gifted and pooped was a pain. I'm glad I learned fast, because I'd started giftbombing! I kinged this current king yesterday, but my previous king lost his deathlord of the jungle title for a few mins, which was fixed but I could have hard an amazing karma boost this event if I'd known.

YEAH, the problem is that the poops were driven as a main way to get stink bugs, but were executed like they were supplementary, which is resulting in disappointment



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a-damn (4.1k Ice) (#109872)

Usual
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:09:34
Oh! Something you can add to the negative message you get when pooping, and you can quote me on this one:
From my own experience, a lot of the time when I left poops, the message it said afterwards always made me feel like a bad person. I suffer from multiple mental illnesses, and even though I take medicine, it still affects me. I have auditory hallucinations sometimes, and the message from pooping would often trigger the auditory hallucinations, causing me to hear voices calling me out and saying names and horrible stuff, and I end up feeling like a terrible person. I know a few people on here who experience similar things, similar triggers that have bad outcomes, I'm not the only one. Who knows what sort of psychological/mental damage this can cause to certain people?



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Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:11:24
@PastHorizon - damn, I hadn't considered that. I'm lucky I don't get that from my MHs, I'll add that to the first post, thank you! I'll make a link to this comment/post on the thread.



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Diegos (Graymalkin
Side) (#60326)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:12:55
I do love this event, and I don't think it is to poorly skewed currency wise, or not any more or less so then any other event. I think all events are, to a degree, bent to favour more active players. Perhaps not on purpose, though any site will obviously want to encourage more frequent usage by its players, its just a by product of playing more often that you get more event currency/items. Does it suck? Yes, I mean, I work 8+ hours a day 5 days a week and can't afford data to play on lunch break so I will not get as much stuff as home-bound players-but that's life :P
I DO think the karma issue needs to be addressed-it's so hard to be good when people WANT poop. I know, that isn't the fault of the site really, but caught up in the cries for poop from players and excitement of the season, it is hard to keep a good lion. I think that, a different way of affecting karma is merited. Either with the Snuhlion idea, or perhaps having people select a 'poop or gift' option for their dens, so that if you visit and poop on a 'gift' lair, it is negative since its against the request? That way you can choose to be nice/naughty, and just only pick poop lairs if you'd rather be pooping then gifting?
So, long and short of it
I DON'T think the drop rate of Stink Beetles in explore or poop needs to be changed, it seems fair as it can be really, increasing it will only increase the amount frequent players get too, keeping the gap as wide as ever (and flooding the site with active players buying tons of event items-decreasing their value).
I DO think that Karma needs to be effected differently, so that players trying to help each other have a nice Liodeny XMas day can do so without trying to weight karma against being nice to fellow players(you know, in spirit of the season).
SO I half support, half don't, this idea. Okay, sorry for long message, bye!



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a-damn (4.1k Ice) (#109872)

Usual
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:15:35
Cheshire, I love that idea, of making your den give or take karma depending on if you want poop or a gift!



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