Posted by Changing the Ember Base from Gold to Red Genetics

Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Warrior
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Posted on
2019-08-10 17:33:01
In this suggestion I am arguing why I believe the Ember base should be moved from gold genetics to red genetics. For the ease of readability, I have divided this suggestion into 5 different talking points.

1. The base itself.
2. Swatches
3. The Fire Theme
4. The parallels to the Inferno base.
5. What about the Golds?


1. The base itself.
8mVs2GK.png
Just from a cursory glance from the base, most people would agree that it looks decidedly reddish. The main colour is a warm saturated reddish-brown, it has orange highlights (similar to the colour seen on the fiery base) between the whiter underbelly and the main dark colour and it has an unquestionably vibrant red dorsal line on the back. If one was to just look at the base, without any knowledge of the genetics, I would be surprised if anyone guessed it to be placed within the gold genetics. Indeed, even the name of the base suggests a red placement – embers being the glowing red-hot ashes of a fire, whether on a fuel source or floating in the air.

In the News thread, an admin representative stated that the main colour of the base is brown as part of the reason why it is in the gold genetics, however, being brown isn’t simply enough to be placed into the golden genetics group. After all, there are plenty of brown bases in red genetics (indeed, more than in the golden genetics) and these are often extremely saturated, similar to the colours seen in the Ember base. In order to illustrate this, I will compare the Ember base with the most similar bases from the red and gold genetics.

2. Swatches
In one of the responses to a user arguing that the Ember base was more red than brown, the admins stated:

“It's not just the colour that picks to brown, it's whole look that is pretty dark golden and fits to the genetic chart. It has red accents because of the factor bases, and has grey accents because of the other factor bases.”

In this section, I will respond to this argument that the Ember colour fits to the dark golden genetics by comparing it with bases from both the golden and red genetics which I feel most closely (I will respond to the ‘dark golden look’ argument in section 4).

When looking to compare bases in the red and gold genetic group with the Ember base, I used a colour wheel to more easily disseminate between the main colours of each base. Ember’s main dark reddish brown colour was used for the centre, with dots for the red and grey accent colours.
I then looked for bases in the genetic groups that are most similar to the Ember base. For the Gold genetics, I compared Ember with:
- Topaz
- Ochre
- Chatoyant
- Trophy
And for the Red genetics, I compared Ember with:
- Umber
- Ruddy
- Redwood
- Henna
- Black Rose
- Chocolate
- Auburn
- Bloodbourne
Whilst yes, I have included more bases in the red genetics than the gold bases, this is because I feel that these are the only bases in the gold genetics which can get anywhere close to being similar to the Ember base. If you want to look at other golden bases to compare, you can click here to go to the genetics page.

8mVs2GK.png

Now just from a brief look, it should be clear that the main colour making up the ember base fits the red genetics bases much more uniformly than that of the gold genetics. There are many red bases with similar colours (or colour) to the Ember shade. Indeed, even the highlights fit with many lighter red bases – such as brown, sienna and blazing. Whereas the gold bases do not generally have such a saturated dark reddish-brown as a main colour and are indeed as a rule much lighter in shades and more yellow. From my comparisons, the two golden bases which most resemble the Ember base’s main colouration are Ochre and Trophy. However, the dark brown colour in Trophy is an accent colour around its main golden shades, and whilst ochre is somewhat reddish, it is nowhere near as saturated as the Ember base.
Comparison between Ochre, Ember and Trophy to illustrate my point:
8mVs2GK.png

To conclude, the Ember base is best placed within the red genetics, as shown by the similar shades of browns and reds which are already within the red genetics, as opposed to the gold genetics which has very different shades of brown and yellow colours.

3. The Fire Theme

Earlier in the suggestion, I quoted the admins stating that the “whole look... is pretty dark golden.” I have discredited this in section 2 – showing that it bears far more similarities with the dark/medium red bases than those in the gold genetics. However, I do believe that Ember does indeed share a common ‘look’, as a so-called ‘fire base’. Within the red genetics there are several bases named after aspects of fire – these being fiery, blazing, inferno and brimstone. Ember fits very well both in theming and colouration, within this theme of fire. To illustrate:

8mVs2GK.png

A key point here is that, other than the grey accent patches, all of the colours found in the Ember base can be found within other ‘fire bases’. The Ember base has a deeply saturated brown colour similar to the one found in Brimstone, whilst having bright orange and red accents similar to the colours found in Blazing and Fiery. With this clear relation to other red bases, the placement of Ember in the gold genetics is puzzling. Especially when considering that this is not the first time that a base almost universally agreed to be of red genetics was placed in the gold genetics.

4. The parallels with Inferno in the Golden genetics
The situation with Ember is eerily similar to the issue when Inferno, which is now a red, countershaded, medium base, was once within the gold genetics.

8mVs2GK.png

With inferno, the main reasoning used to defend its inclusion within the gold genetics, rather than the red genetics, was that its yellow underfur was sufficient enough to qualify as golden. Obviously when looking at the base itself, we can see that, whilst the pale yellow is a powerful aspect of the inferno base, the varying shades of reds and browns seen in most of the base made it’s inclusion within the gold genetics ultimately incongruous and this was fixed when the last large scale genetics revamp occurred.
As such, the precedent has been set. Following on from what I have argued, there is more than enough evidence that the Ember base should follow the direction of Inferno, and have a change in genetics from dark golden to dark red. However, there then comes the issue of the current lack of desirable gold bases in the gold genetics, which I will discuss in the next section.

5. What about the Gold genetics?
Some may argue that Ember, though discordant with the gold genetics, should remain where it is as there is an absent of interesting bases within the gold genetics. This I fundamentally disagree with, for similar reasons as to why people disagreed with inferno remaining in the gold genetics.

- It does not fit with the other gold bases. This means that those who enjoy breeding golden bases will be unlikely to breed for the Ember base and those who enjoy the look of the Ember base are discouraged from breeding it due to not liking the resulting golden bases it produces.
- Ember is a combo base made with a red and black base parent. When breeding, the only golden base which can help produce more Ember bases is itself. There is no mixing with the other golden bases other than the gold bases it may currently produce, none of which greatly resemble it. Hence it would make more sense for the base to join the red genetics with the red parent bases where it can produce 'fail bases' which resemble it.

However, whilst the dark golden group may have to temporarily lose a base, there are already many user suggestions for golden bases that resemble the other golden bases far more closely and represent what people want in a golden base. For example, there is already a suggestion made for a golden base which closely resembles Ember except with colours more in line with the golden genetics (a 'smoulder' base). When there are so many rich, interesting golden base suggestions from users, there is no need to have bases that clearly belong in another group.

Conclusion
To conclude, the Ember base shares extraordinary similarities with the red genetics group such to the point that it’s inclusion in the gold genetics group is incongruous with the other bases. Thus, it should be moved into the Red Dark Countershaded Special genetics and a different base, maybe one of the many fabulous user gold base suggestions, should take its place.



This suggestion has 347 supports and 35 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/01/21 @ 14:30:29 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Fading Angel (G2 2k)
[Frozen] (#81854)

Holy
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Posted on
2019-08-10 17:53:55
I definitely like point 3!
It proves a lot.

Red group factor with black group factor, making gold group factor makes no sense at all in this case



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:03:49
Yes, yes, yes please.

A combo in GDCS is a valuable slot and Ember taking it up is upsetting :( Gold needs actual golds and a combo that can synergize with it, that Gold breeders can use gold factors to get. I'm really looking forward to new unique Golds in the future but this isn't a gold at all.

I'd be fine with Ember as a red- I wouldn't hate the base anymore if it was. And it NEEDS to be red. Please, please, please don't give us THAT as a consolation prize, LD Seriously, it's a fine red!



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Edited on 10/08/19 @ 18:06:25 by the serval spots 💛🌼 (#98320)

yeehaw country man (#122683)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:10:30
I love how well you’ve explained everything, it puts it all into words perfectly and bless you for having the patience to explain it without cussing



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Darth [main] (#117624)

Total Chad
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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:12:44
Ember base: released as a golden special
Blue Pigeon (#68580): in this essay I will-



But in all seriousness, as someone who isn't a gold breeder whatsoever and steers mostly clear of their genetics group out of personal preference, the way you presented this and all the compiled evidence and examples felt like I was reading an incredible argument paper with research and everything behind it. I don't care much for Ember in the first place but it's insane to see all these details pointed out and I've found myself agreeing with them! You've got my support ^^

Along the same vein as in Sections 2 and 3, wherein mention was made about the reasoning for the golden label was because it's overall dark golden or other- Labradorite is a Golden Medium Solid. When only... the middle sliver of the base can be construed as some kind of golden or pale whatever, while the base is predominantly blue and some ruddy red/brown/black color on bottom. And where do all the blue bases go? Black Light Countershaded (Ice, Elysian, maybe Divine) Black Medium Countershaded (Leonid, Arctic, Aufeis), Black Light Countershaded (Pulsar, Glacial), Black Dark Solid (Nadir, Interstellar). So, the argument that the base "looks" dark golden sounds about as reasonable as Labradorite being a gold. (KEEP IN MIND that I don't know anything about Labradorite's release as I wasn't playing the game at that time so I don't know any of its reasons for its genetics label either or whatnot.)



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Agryo [Quitting] (#70050)


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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:20:32
P R E A C H

I'd grumbled in the vein of point five on the News Post proper, but bringing up Inferno as a precedent is a perfect choice!

Letting Ember stay Golden won't help anyone- it will further confuse what the base groups are supposed to be, will not encourage Gold breeding due to its factors/not fitting with what makes Gold attractive to players already, and it takes the place of some Gold Dark Countershaded base that could truly wow and inspire users.

But as it stands, it only offers a convenient excuse to not give Gold anything for a bit. "But we just gave you a base/GDC already has a combo base"

Thank you so much for articulating your argument so well! <3



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LionnoiL
(BlackRose+MR) (#154871)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:27:45
Although I love a good special gold base, this is definitely not a gold base. I think you explained it perfectly! I support 100%.



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:36:35
That's what I was worried about.

Golden Dark Countershaded is my favorite group, and Fulvous is my favorite base. Ever. Now that Ember's stuck in there it won't get anything for ages, and probably never a combo again unless Ember is moved. It's really sad for me since Ember doesn't even have any gold factors for me to use :(

Please just make it red and it's fine! This is the one time in my life ever that I'm going to think that there shouldn't be a Gold XD



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Kiri[10k Dawn Mott
Orchid Pie] (#31868)

Divine
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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:38:52
I'm not a gold base breeder, but there are SO MANY attractive gold base suggestions and mockups by players. I don't understand how throwing a red base in with gold is beneficial to anyone. As you pointed out, gold base breeders won't breed for it, since it's red, and other base breeders won't breed for it since it's gold based. Its novelty will wear off after a few are produced. And then it will be forgotten. Why not just give gold based breeders the bases they deserve?



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Fading Angel (G2 2k)
[Frozen] (#81854)

Holy
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Posted on
2019-08-10 18:40:04
I saw someone say "it looks gold on my phone"

Well... I have a updated 2017 smartphone, and im sorry but... This on my phone... Is freaking Red. And the "gold" tones, remind me more of cream anyways.

Also.. If I was gonna compare bases for like a heir or queen, like which shade looks better.
I wouldnt compare it to golds, I would be comparing it to Brimestone, inferno, and other Red bases



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Zambz (#2687)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2019-08-11 01:47:09
I love Red genetics so I'd be very happy to move it to red! It would actually fit very well into my pride as I love how it looks with the white and cream markings I try and focus on, a darn shame to find out it was golden though lol. Totally support moving it for sure owo



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Desolace, Colorbomb (#36375)

Phoenix
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Posted on
2019-08-11 03:12:19
This is a very well thought out and presented argument.

And I agree.

This base was amazing when I first laid eyes on it.

But disappointment was 2 fold.

One, its a combo. FFS stop with combo bases and start filling holes in genetics with more common bases! Whats with all these specials and not enough common! (Not that this base should be common, its too awesome) But please, put more energy into common bases so the genetics table has more variety and better grouping!

Two, WTF....gold? Seriously? It doesnt even look gold.



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-08-11 11:53:19
I just checked the wiki, and Ember is the only combo base ingame that doesn't even have a factor the same color as it. Gilded has Bast, which is at least a gold medium, and Ember was just placed into gold for no reason?



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Desolace, Colorbomb (#36375)

Phoenix
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Posted on
2019-08-11 13:08:07
Is ember now the only combo that has one common base (Pewter) as a requirement?


https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?id=794129546228



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-08-11 13:10:03
No, lots of other combo bases have commons. Cloudburst, Olive, Xanthic, and i think Wahir all have one common specifically though. The problem is the color of the factors not making any sense :(



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Rook G5 💘💜💙 (#69732)

Blessed
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Posted on
2019-08-12 10:07:46
.



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Edited on 13/08/19 @ 11:26:53 by SeaFoaming (Ivory, Daedal) (#69732)







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