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| Posted by | "No Support" explanation dropdown |
 Before (#25066) Lone Wanderer View Forum Posts  Posted on 2015-10-12 02:50:28 |
Since the "no support" button has been added, I've noticed a lot of hard feelings about people pressing the "no support" button without explanation. A potential way to fix this without completely removing the option is to add a dropdown box of potential reasons to the "no support" option. Possible options for dropdown: -Doesn't match theme of Lioden (This covers suggestions too unnatural for Lioden, for example) -Makes game too difficult -Makes game too easy -Too much art/coding for too little purpose -Changes core gameplay too much -Needs more clarification (suggested by Poptart Feelzhands (#4675) ) -Reason stated in comments (with a potential ability to specify which comment) EDIT: Changed the wording on a couple of suggested options, and added mockups for how it'd look! If you don't hit a button, or press "I Support!" it would look exactly the same as is now. After you hit "I DON'T Support!" though, this is what the opening post would look like at the bottom:  Here's the full dropdown with my suggested options:  Do you see that link, labelled "(Why?)"? That leads to a new page, detailing the responses of those who specified. The (Why?) button would be present regardless of which button you pressed, or whether you've supported/not supported at all:  As you can see, if you choose "Reason stated in comments" it would allow you to choose which post on the topic you're referencing. I don't know how to mock that up, though. I was picturing by post number, but those aren't visible at the moment. I assume staff'd be able to figure something out though. Responses to concerns: "It sounds too complicated" -I can't speak for the coding, but the way I was picturing it, it doesn't add too much to the interface. "You shouldn't be required to explain yourself, it'll make it too complicated to not support vs. support" -I initially believed it should be mandatory, but people have explained this pretty well. My new mockups show it as not mandatory, and as after the press of the "no support" button. "People will still complain about getting "no support"s even after this is implemented" -That is true. However, I do believe getting feedback from people who prefer to remain anonymous will be helpful to many suggesters, and knowing exactly what the userbase protests to would be helpful for the admins. "The options are too generic" -They have to be generic for this to work. Otherwise there'd be way too many options to be useful. But, you can still cite a particular comment if the other options are too generic for you. "It'll discourage discussion" -While it is possible it might, it was possible the inclusion of the "no support" button in the first place might have as well. If people have something to say, they will say it. This option is mainly for people who choose to remain anonymous. |
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Katavi [Mhenga Usafi] (#21119) Amazing View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-13 09:14:07 |
Oh! That's an interesting idea. So long as it's not required, I think it might be a nice option to have.  0 players like this post! Like? |
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Muffinrowlet 🌸 (#37042)
Evil View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-13 09:37:04 |
Personaly, I think it should be required. Now that we have the option not to support, it's easy to give no explaination at all, as opposed to before. Explaining why you're unsupportive can help whoever made the suggestion to change aspects in order to please everyone. Someone didn't support my suggestion and is the only person not to have done so, so far, at the very least, while the thing I suggested has no apparent downside. I would've like to know why they didn't approve of it. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Before (Side) (#25835)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 02:18:57 |
(OP here, just on my side account) I'm leaning towards it being required, but I'm going to ultimately leave that up to the admins. One of the main things I'm concerned about is the whole "no support because I don't like you" mentality. Or even "no support because nobody's unsupported this yet." But, even requiring an option to be selected won't completely eliminate this. I am curious about counter-arguments to needing to select a reason from dropdown, though. It's all anonymous whether there's a reason or not, and providing a reason, even if generic, provides more feedback than an empty "no support." 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/10/15 @ 10:49:44 by Before (Side) (#25835) |
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Robin {Elysian} (#52813)
Bone Collector View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 02:32:00 |
I wouldn't support making this. I feel like the problems people have with the No Support button are 100% problems because of personal/emotional investment in an idea, which won't be helped if you add on a drop-down of explanations. Some people will still get pissed off no matter how much feedback they get because they just don't want to hear "I don't like it". A drop-down won't help those people. I think that adding a drop-down is an unnecessary amount of coding for something which would probably be happening in comments anyway. Also, the categories you've described are way too general and too likely to cause even more drama when someone is told their idea would make the game "less fun". It would also make suggestion posts a mess of Support buttons and reasons (how would you list the reasons on the post? Or would only the OP see them?) rather than the discussions which actually help ideas grow. Also, why should people only have to give a reason for not liking something? It creates an atmosphere of praise for the sake of praise rather than actual consideration of whether or not an idea is good. People already seem to think that suggestions are a popularity contest rather than a forum for discussion -- this would make that atmosphere worse, IMO. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Before (Side) (#25835)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 03:41:14 |
@Robin - Fair enough. Thank you for your feedback. In some cases it is true that people are too emotional about their suggestions, however I do still believe it would be good to show them what exactly people don't like about their suggestion in the case where no one comments because it's obvious to the "no support"ers what is wrong with it. And while my suggested options are just suggestions, I do agree that "Would make Lioden less fun" is way too generic, and I'll remove it once I'm back on my main. My thoughts were about suggestions that make a certain style of play impossible (whether by removing a feature, or making another, optional, feature required), which might make the game less fun for some people. But yeah, it's very poorly worded and I should change it. Most of the options need to be generic, though, otherwise there'd have to be too many options in the dropdown to reasonably work. How I was picturing it was as a separate page. You'd click a button by the "This suggestion has X supports and Y NO supports" text which would lead you to a chart showing the reasons. As for why we should give a reason, it provides some sort of feedback. Supporting something is self-explanitory - you like what the person is suggesting, and would like it implemented as described. When you don't support something, you feel there's a flaw in the original post, whether it's a small detail or the whole thing. It's helpful for the suggester, and the admins, if you say why. But I do see your points about this potentially changing the atmosphere of the suggestions forum. I am hoping that people would still comment their reasoning and discuss the suggestions, but I can see how this might discourage that. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Katavi [Mhenga Usafi] (#21119) Amazing View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 03:59:30 |
Now that I'm not on my phone, I can explain a bit better. I support, but I have the same concerns with Robin. I do not feel people should have to explain or defend themselves if they choose not to support. Honestly, they just may not like the idea of that particular base or marking, or changing the way hunting works or adding a feature to the game. Saying so isn't going to help the topic or 'improve' the suggestion necessarily; they simply just not find it an attractive option to add. And having to say 'well, I don't think it will be fun' for example, can often cause people to have bad reactions no matter how polite they are. I've known quite a few people who have wanted to 'not support' before, but didn't want to post it because they dislike the confrontation. This gives them an opinion to have their feelings known anonymously and without worry that someone is going to get upset at them. I think it's a fair option since no one is required to post a reason for supporting either. I agree that yes, it is nice for constructive criticism to help, but it also depends on the poster. I am not calling anyone out, but we all know there are people who get very passive-aggressive, mean-spirited, or downright try and guilt people for any 'no supports' no matter how reasonable or politely worded they are. We have already had people going "Why all the no supports? It makes me SO SAD!" and that is without them having a specific target. In several of those threads, when people did explain, it only increased the complaining about people being 'mean' to them. Personally, that is not something I want to have to deal with and I imagine a lot of others don't. So giving them an anonymous way to say 'yay or nay' is fair. That said, I support this as being an option when you click no support, but not as a requirement and certainly not something that will list a name. If people want to be anonymous, the original poster then they should be able to do, regardless of if they are supporting or not supporting. Honestly, Xylax has said many times that our supports and 'no supports' aren't the deciding factor. It is the staff/admin's final decision. It allows them to get a feel, but even if a suggestion has a 1,000 supports and they dislike it, it won't be implied. Which is reasonable; it is their game and their time, after all. However, because of that, I don't see a reason to 'force' people to expose themselves as a 'non supporter' since in the end, it isn't up to anyone but the staff. So if people want to remain quiet, but still vote, I think that's fair. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Before (Side) (#25835)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 04:29:11 |
@Haidar Ah, that makes sense. I usually leave the buttons alone if I don't have a particular reason for liking/disliking it, so I didn't think of people who "no support" because they dislike a suggestion without any particular criteria. Again, going to leave it up to the admins for whether it should be mandatory or not, though. And yep, the main point of this suggestion is to allow people to explain their dissent while remaining anonymous. Their names would not be listed, just like if you click the "no support" button now. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Muffinrowlet 🌸 (#37042)
Evil View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 04:44:01 |
What Robin and Haider said is true. Very true, in fact, I realise that now. Thinking back, I've personaly decided not to say anything while not giving my support, because I feared people would be mad at me, stuff like that. In fact, each time I said why I didn't support, other user have been disrespectful towards me and to other players sharing an opinion similar to mine. I don't think it should be required afterall. But, perhaps, if a person do choose to leave an explaination, they could have the option to do so anonymously? The feedback would have no link to a profile, no name except for "Anonymous #X", the numbers used to differenciate the different anons on the thread. I think it would help a lot of users, BUT, on the other hand, this option could be used by users to target others w/o any consequence. So maybe the admins and mods could could trace back the anonymous reply to the player who made it. I'm aware this messy and I'm a bit unsure of this thing myself, to be honest. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Before (Side) (#25835)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 05:00:18 |
@The Sun Demon It would be entirely anonymous, unless you're suggesting something else. The idea is that there would be a dropdown by the "I DON'T Support" button (or after you press it) that would have some options to further explain why you don't support. The way I'm picturing it, the explanations would be compiled on another page with perhaps a graph or just the numbers. Say a suggestion had 100 No Supports (or 100 no supports with a reason if it's optional). You'd click on the button (maybe it'd say "why?") and see the page. It might say: -Makes game too easy (77) -Reasons stated in comments - [post link here] (9) -Doesn't match theme of Lioden (8) -Too much art/coding for too little purpose (5) -Reasons stated in comments - [another post link here] (1) No names whatsoever. Just the amount of people who have a particular reason to not support a suggestion. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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mau🐾 g2 Bast BO 2k ferus (#17735) 
UwU View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 05:05:51 |
To be honest, that seems like way too much work, and much more complicated than the current format. I feel it would dissuade people from providing helpful feedback on topics. Also, what would prevent a user from putting in a nonsense string of letters to get past the drop down, and clog the feedback area for no reason? As it stands, no support for now. If feedback is totally required for any vote, then the whole button system is pointless, imo. While the tally system the buttons provide isn't perfect, it provides a quick overview to staff of a topic before they take through the time to comment on it- staff might not spend as much time reading through topics with a lot more 'no supports' than 'supports', and adding this mandatory element would really mess with sample size, due to the amount of people willing to take the time to make an argument. Some people have nothing to add, or are simply a private person that doesn't wish to publicly post, anonymous, or not. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/10/15 @ 12:09:45 by Mau's Floofy Side (#17735) |
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Clocks {quad ice} (#46198)
Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 05:13:20 |
I personally voted no support. :p Just like you don't have to give reasons why you do like a suggestion (which might be helpful to gauge why a new mechanic might be useful/interesting/needed), I don't think people should have to explain why they don't support something as well. Even through a dropdown menu. I've noticed that some people seem to get agitated and really want to know why people don't support their idea, but these same people usually don't take criticism that well when given anyway. There are lots of reasons someone might not like an idea and I for one have never hit "no support" out of something petty like personal dislike. Also, while some ideas can be tweaked to be better (and at that point you can change whether you support or not if you want to!) many ideas just flat out don't work, so knowing why someone doesn't support it wouldn't really enable you to change it for the better. In my experience, if an idea can be expanded or tweaked to be better, it usually has a decent amount of supports and is workable regardless. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/10/15 @ 12:13:55 by Clocks (#46198) |
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Sobie (#33695)
Usual View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 05:21:40 |
No support for reasons already stated, though I think the initial concept to get people more engaged in a suggestion would be nice. I just don't think making people categorize why or why not would be helpful (assuming this would be implemented for both the 'support' and 'no support' buttons). People who want to engage will, and those that don't want to won't. This would work well in some kind of business setting (as annoying as anything mandatory is), but across the player base, in an entertainment oriented setting, it won't help. People will get butt-hurt regardless of the vote or the reasoning behind it and just cause drama =/ 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Before (Side) (#25835)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 06:04:14 |
Since it seems my first post isn't quite clear enough, I made some mock-ups.  Here's what the first post might look like if my suggestion was implemented.  Here's the dropdown box in full.  Clicking on "(Why?)" would lead to this page! No names! No text boxes! Just a dropdown that lets you anonymously say why you disagree. This'll be added to the first post when I next log into my main. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Larvirawr (#27485)
Dreamboat of Ladies View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 06:15:10 |
Eh, I don't know. Usually when I don't support something I have a very precise reason why. That menu seems a little too general for me. I think it's fine the way it is. You shouldn't have to give a reason for not supporting something if you don't want to, just like you shouldn't have to give a reason if you do support it. Someone will eventually comment a reason why they don't support it, or do. Although tbh sometimes I "no support" stuff if the OP makes drama about people pressing the no support button xD Or if they say something like "if you press the no support button you HAVE TO GIVE A REASON" I'm a jerk 0 players like this post! Like? |
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ambers. 🍊 (#15417)
Mean View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-10-14 10:37:14 |
I feel that no one is really entitled to give you a reason why they didn't support idea. And given the fact that there has been thread drama over people not wanting to give their opinion on the suggested idea, I really think this option can make it even worse. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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