Posted by [++] Lioness caesarean & new mutations!

Dier ~ 10k Frail ~
x6 Rosette (#80015)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-03-15 06:18:56
I don't know where this idea came from, but I thought it would be pretty cool to include in the game!

My idea is this: what if the monkeys could give a lioness a C-section (in their own way) in exchange for SB?

EDIT: After a three year hiatus from the game, I've returned and finally read the comments. This has been updated to human vets carrying out the c-section.

A C-section could be carried out 1 day before the cubs would normally be born by human vets by sending a lioness to the nature reserve. There would be a high chance for these cubs to be born with rare mutations, however there would also be risks involved:

✤ 98% chance a cub would be stillborn
✤ 5% chance the mother would die (from an infection)

The chance of surviving cubs to have a mutation would be 75%. This would make any mutations resulting from the early birth very rare and valuable. If a lioness' whole litter was stillborn, she would come into heat again in three days (similar to an un-nested lioness).

Since the lioness is being cared for by vets in the nature reserve, she would return (be released back to the wild) when her cubs are 5 months old. Kings cannot check on the lioness during this time so will not know if it was successful until she returns to the pride.

Possible mutations could include:

✤ Thin coat
✤ Under-formed leg (potentially lethal)
✤ Small ears
✤ Half-grown tail
✤ Stunted growth
✤ Small boned (would look very thin and fragile)
✤ Few teeth (can only eat critters, very skinny)
✤ Closed eyes (unable to hunt / patrol)
✤ Fused / partially fused lips (potentially lethal, only able to eat critters)
✤ Fused toes (unable to hunt / patrol)

Any support for the idea would be great!



This suggestion has 341 supports and 83 NO supports.



Edited on 18/02/20 @ 14:30:01 by Diermageddon~15x Feline, 3000+ (#80015)

Sayori's [Side] (#30833)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-03-15 20:13:44
This sounds interesting (yay for more mutation :D). But I think rather than costing SB, it should be a GB or event/feature item. Otherwise they wouldn't be rare.


Dier ~ 10k Frail ~
x6 Rosette (#80015)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-03-16 01:33:01
Given the very low probability of it occuring, I was thinking GB might be a bit harsh for an almost definite failure. But having it as an event item could work!


Toska (#19637)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-07-05 06:36:19
I really like this idea. I don't know if you implied this in your post, but what if there were mutations only obtained from caesarian? That could be a way to add new mutations and not make older mutations easier to get. They could all have a developmental theme like the ones you listed. The death by infection is also cool, but I think there should be some kind of oil/aloe vera/turmeric remedy that could treat the infection.

For the price, GB seems reasonable since CRB's cost GB and have a high failure rate. You could even limit it to once in a lionesses life, once a year, or limit to player to X amount of C-sections per week or month.


Chaotic Goat #PRIDE (#49900)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-07-05 13:31:06
Ohmygod. I FUCKING LOVE THE FUSED TOES IDEA. That would be such a cool mutation. Along with fused toes, lower stats, including agility.


vairindiel (#63535)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-07-05 18:13:41
I can't support this as it is stated. The idea of monkeys performing cesarean sections (a major abdominal surgery) with their claws (!!) just doesn't allow me the suspension of disbelief.

The lack of anesthesia and sterility... the soft tissue trauma... *shudders*

If the admins decide to add this then I think the risks involved should be much higher -- like a 95% (or preferably much greater) chance that the lioness will die. An infection would be the least of her problems.

With that said, I think that the base idea (a high-risk way to get rare mutations) could still be implemented in a manner that fits better with Lioden's current features.

Consider: Teratogenic Stew (not a specific reference, but some information)

"This mysterious concoction may increase mutation chance in your lioness's unborn litter. However, there is a very high chance that the cubs will be stillborn instead, even if nested."

Page text:
"This lioness has been given Teratogenic Stew and is at high risk for stillbirth."

Game notification:
"Your lioness, 'Lioness', has given birth to X cubs! Unfortunately, they were all stillborn due to the Teratogenic Stew she ate a few months ago. As she lost her entire litter, this lioness will need a couple of days to grieve. After that, she will come into heat again. Perhaps she should avoid the concoction next time?"

"Your lioness, 'Lioness', has given birth to X cubs! Unfortunately, all but X were stillborn due to the Teratogenic Stew she ate a few months ago. Closer inspection of the remaining cub(s) shows that they are not entirely healthy, either..."

Cub health messages would then follow here, or in their own notification.

Alternatively: Bungo Fruit or Mbungo Root Bark (reference) i.e. labor induction agent

"May increase mutation chance in an unborn litter. However, there is a very high chance that the cubs will be stillborn instead, even if nested."

Page text (once used; still in hoard view):
Your lioness has gone into early labor! [Link to view lion or inbox]

Game notification:
"Your lioness, 'Lioness', has given birth to X cubs. Unfortunately, it was too early and they were all stillborn. As she lost her entire litter, this lioness will need a couple of days to grieve. After that, she will come into heat again. Perhaps she should avoid the [Induction Agent] next time?"

"Your lioness, 'Lioness', has given birth to X cubs! Unfortunately, all but X were stillborn due to her early labor. Closer inspection of the remaining cub(s) shows that they are not entirely healthy, either..."

Cub health messages would then follow here, or in their own notification.


Cloudeh brah (#1695)

Sweetheart
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Posted on
2016-07-05 18:21:59
^Support


Werewolf! (#92755)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-07-06 07:13:54
I completely support the idea of more mutations, and more items that cause/affect mutation percentages, but primate-assisted caesarean in the middle of the jungle/savannah/desert is just too Disney-On-Acid for me. The lioness would 100% die of either blood loss, trauma from monkeys clawing her open, or resulting infection.


Kaliathra (Kala's
Side) (#32381)

Majestic
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Posted on
2016-07-06 23:28:11
Maybe it should have a nomadic lion shaman who would be a knowledgable healer who maybe require some herbs like aloe vera, mint, basil, banana leaf/ves, poppy petals and/or poppy petals? Maybe it could work better this way as the lioness would be in less pain if you successfully gathered the 'required' herbs/plants?


Black Rhinoceros (#68593)

Divine
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Posted on
2016-07-06 23:31:42
This sounds really cool. But, asking GB for this would be too much because of the high failure rate. If it cost SB, then I like it. It's an awesome idea. Support. We need more mutations! I think a shaman would be a cool creature to do this.


Paarthurnax 🐥 (#64137)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2016-07-08 16:37:56
Um, so this will be implemented then? I see the [++] that says it will be. If it will, exactly when will it be implemented?


vairindiel (#63535)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-07-09 05:38:50
@Paarthurnax -- The [++] means that it's been added to the admins' discussion list, not that will be implemented. Personally, I would rather see it revised substantially or rejected.

@Kaliathra -- While gathering specific items could help with addressing a few issues in a game-consistent manner, having a lion shaman involved instead adds additional ones that make the suspension of disbelief even harder for me.

To reiterate the main problem I have with this suggestion: Implementing animal-assisted pre-term cesarean sections as a method to procure rare mutations does not fit with any of Lioden's current features, even the most unrealistic ones.

I get wanting new ways to add mutations, and have no issues with the OP's base idea (adding a new, high-risk method to get rare mutations). But there is nothing in the game at this point in time to indicate that our lions or other animals are capable of performing even a minor surgery on one another, let alone a major one with only a proposed 5% chance of death for the lioness. There is, however, precedence for introducing the base idea in a game-realistic manner with the various breeding items we already have.

I'm going to try to explain my stance in a bit more depth now. It may get a bit technical, and long, so please bear with me.

Cesarean sections are a major abdominal surgery. I don't think I can stress this enough. They require general anesthesia and adherence to the principles of asepsis (i.e. sterile technique) in order to be performed safely in carnivores. While they can be an elective procedure (see: bulldogs, etc.), they are most often performed as an emergency following difficulty with natural birth. So, at or near term. Additionally, they are performed through a ventral midline incision (this is the same approach for most abdominal surgeries, such as a spay); this will be important later.

Maternal survival rates were historically abysmal. Yes, this pertains to humans, but the conditions present in Lioden (i.e. the wild) are similar to/worse than the conditions c-sections were performed under for much of history. So. For perspective, they were performed in order to remove an infant from a dead/dying mother until the late 1800s. Per one estimate ZERO women survived a c-section in Paris from 1787-1876. Maternal survival rates are relatively high today because medical advances have allowed surgeons to do things like suture the uterus, address blood loss, and minimize infection (1, 2).

Lioden is a lion simulation game. Yes, there are unrealistic aspects to it. That doesn't change the fact that our lions are wild: They fight for territory (at least initially), hunt, claim lionesses, etc. They do not have the capability to perform surgery or use tools.

In light of the previous points, it stretches credibility to accept that wild lions or monkeys could perform a c-section in the field with good maternal outcome, when humans have struggled to do so for much of our history.

Adding c-sections to the game would also require players to accept that:
  1. The lioness could be adequately anesthetized.
  2. The surgical site could be adequately prepared in order to minimize infection.
  3. The use of claws to perform the surgery would cause minimal tissue damage and bleeding.
  4. The lion shaman or monkey would be able to control any excessive bleeding.
  5. The surgical site could be closed, or that an open abdominal incision would not be detrimental to the lioness.
Now, as I stated above, some of these points could be addressed in a manner consistent with Lioden's current features (albeit imperfectly so) if players were required to gather specific items. For example:
  • Anesthesia. The best way to address this would be by creating an item with a basis in traditional medicine, like the herbs we gather during the November event. Another way would be to have fermented marula fruit fulfill this requirement (see: use of banana wine in Uganda). This is less ideal, because alcohol is actually a sedative and is toxic to cats, but it's already present in-game.
  • Surgical preparation. Hair is clipped (or occasionally plucked) from the surgical site because it can contaminate the incision. Plucking is feasible for a lion/monkey to do. Scrubbing the surgical site/adherence to aseptic technique is where it gets harder to address using Lioden's constraints. Creating an antiseptic/sterile scrub-like agent with a basis in traditional medicine is likely feasible, as is a monkey's ability to use it on a lioness's abdomen. You could argue that, if it prepares the surgical site, then a monkey would be able to use it to scrub their hands. However: It is not feasible that a lion could do either (scrub lioness, scrub self) by virtue of its fur-covered paws and lack of manual dexterity.
  • Use of claws. While they are sharp, they are not equivalent to scalpels, and would cause more tissue damage than necessary. They would also force any surface contaminants into the surgical wounds.
The remaining points are where I can no longer suspend any disbelief for this idea:
  • Control of bleeding. Even if we accept that a lion or monkey could induce anesthesia and adequately prepare the surgical site, their ability to provide adequate hemostasis during surgery would stretch (if not break) any sense of realism. While there are herbal medicines that can help with bleeding, applying non-sterile compounds internally is just asking for trouble. This leaves cautery, which would require ready access to fire and a piece of metal that could be heated in order to be used. So, lions or monkeys would need the ability to build a fire and either (1) have obtained the appropriate equipment from humans or (2) have the ability to smelt iron and create their own tools from it. There is nothing in-game to suggest the animals of Lioden are capable of this.
  • Closure of the incisions. Why is this important? Historically, failure to close the uterine incision was a leading cause of hemorrhage and infection. This would be no different in lions. As far as the abdominal incision is concerned -- remember that it would be made on the lioness's midline. This means that her organs are not going to stay in place without closing it. Wild lions and monkeys are not going to have access to the modern suture or even iron spikes needed to do so... lions also do not have the physical dexterity necessary to suture in the first place.
To summarize: Cesarean sections aren't a procedure that could be performed on a lioness by another animal with minimal risk under the conditions that would be present in Lioden (i.e. the wild). They could not be incorporated into the game without shattering the suspension of disbelief.

With that said, the base idea (a high-risk method to obtain rare mutations) could easily be implemented in a manner is not horrifically unrealistic and that better fits with Lioden's current features.

Edited to (hopefully) fix spacing



Edited on 09/07/16 @ 12:40:58 by vairindiel (#63535)

Kaliathra (Kala's
Side) (#32381)

Majestic
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Posted on
2016-07-09 18:39:36
You make good points and all of those points are why I'm on the fence with supporting this. I was and am just posting thoughts which occurred to me after reading the caesarean suggestion.

What if a lioness (or lionesses) in need of a caesarean, could travel to the nature reserve (in game) to find a human vet to do the caesarean?



Edited on 10/07/16 @ 01:40:49 by Kaliathra (Kala's Side) (#32381)

silverwhite (#101773)

Savage
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Posted on
2017-01-24 06:00:19
that is actually really really interesting i support this an lot


silverwhite (#101773)

Savage
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Posted on
2017-01-24 06:00:25




Edited on 24/01/17 @ 13:00:51 by silverwhite (#101773)

silverwhite (#101773)

Savage
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Posted on
2017-01-24 06:00:28
that is actually really really interesting i support this a lot