Posted by Genetics Percentage Corrections

LovelyInLace (#129426)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-07-24 14:13:42
So I'm not sure if this is the correct board to post this, but.

The genetics don't really make much sense to me.

Color and gradient groupings are fine, but the other two categories just confuse me. I understand, vaguely, how the genetics work, but . . .
here's what the Lioden wiki says for shades: "There are three different shades. These are Dark, Medium, and Light. This is where the bases start to split up a bit more into their own categories.

Now, let's say you want to get a little bit more detailed with your breeding. You don't just want any Black colour group cub. You want one specifically with Black Dark genetics. Your best option would be to cross two parents with Black Dark genetics, such as Onyx or Slate.

The way that shades work is like so:

Dark x Dark = Dark
Light x Light = Light
Dark x Light = 25% Dark, 25% Light, 50% Medium
Medium x Medium = 15% Dark, 15% Light, 70% Medium
Dark x Medium = 50% Dark, 50% Medium
Light x Medium = 50% Light, 50% Medium

If you breed two Black Dark genetics together, you are guaranteed a Black Dark cub; the same can be said for Black Light. However, as you can see, breeding two different shades together has a chance of giving almost any shade, especially if you were to breed a Black Dark and a Black Light together—you could potentially receive offspring with any Black genetics base!"

and Rarity: ". . . there are two different rarities. These are Common and Special. Rarity is passed much differently than colour groups, shades, and gradients. There is only a 15% chance of a special cub per parent. If you were to cross two Black Dark Solid Specials together, there is now a 30% chance of a special-based cub.

Let's break it down slightly.

Common x Common = 100% Common
Special x Common = 15% Special, 85% Common
Special x Special = 30% Special, 70% Common

However, this gets complicated, as there are differences between special bases. Some bases are more difficult to pass than others—you'll see examples of them, but a few that can be listed are Celestial, Lilac, Sepia, and Pearl. All applicator bases (Blush Rose, Inferno, Ivory, Unholy, etc.) are considered to be "special" specials.

These "special" specials have a lower drop rate than regular special bases, so the chances of producing a Celestial cub if you were to breed two Celestial-based parents (Black Dark Countershaded Special) are lower than if you were to breed two Slate-based parents (also Black Dark Countershaded Special) together.

With these "special" specials, in order for them to have a chance at being passed on, one of the parents must have the required base. A Celestial will not pop up when breeding two Slates, however, a Slate can pop up when breeding two Celestials!"

For me the percentages don't make sense. Lets call Dark -DD and Light -dd
In genetics(with place holder rectangles):

[][] d d
D Dd Dd
D Dd Dd

all cubs of darkxlight would have to be medium

[][] D d
D DD Dd
d Dd dd

Medium ratios would have to be Medium=50%, Dark=25%, Light=25%

Then they're is the medium x light/dark.

[][] D d
D DD Dd
D DD Dd

[][] d d
D Dd Dd
d dd dd

Medium with either other shade would have a 50% chance of spreading medium, 50% chance of the other. Which actually matches it's Lioden counterpart.

Rarity wouldn't go into the genetics box, but why is Special x Special = 70% Common in chance.
If any it should be 30% Common, but then Special would need to change to 30% chance in CommonxCommon breeding.

I realize I'm probably overthinking this but it just doesn't make sense. I know that most members don't want to make the genetics "complicated" but I feel the state they're currently in is strange, to say the least. Maybe I'm incorrect with the percentages or whatever but at the very least the rarity doesn't make sense. If you just look at "(color shading gradient) special" and breed it to another of the same, you don't expect "common" at the end almost every time.

Seeing as this is a "suggestion" sort of board, my proposal is to change the percentages.

Gradients and color groups would stay the same.

Shades would go:
Dark x Dark = 100% Dark
Light x Light = 100% Light
Dark x Light = 100% Medium
Medium x Medium = 25% Dark, 25% Light, 50% Medium
Dark x Medium = 50% Dark, 50% Medium
Light x Medium = 50% Light, 50% Medium

Rarity would be:
Common x Common = 100% Common
Special x Common = 15% Special, 85% Common
Special x Special = 100% Special

or

Common x Common = 30% Special, 70% Common
Special x Common = 15% Special, 85% Common
Special x Special = 70% Special, 30% Common

I'd leave the Special x Common percentages alone because a.) I have no clue where the 15:85 ratio comes from and b.) the Special bases are the ones that really irritate me "genetics" wise as if you're putting two of the same together it would be at least mostly similar.

If you don't like this suggestion can you please write an explanation as to why you disagree.
If it's just part of this suggestion you dislike could you please write what you think is wrong and if I agree with your judgement I'll edit it. (As I wouldn't be surprised if there was at least a little wrong with this, typo or otherwise)
If you do like this suggestion, thank you and as with the above if you have any suggestion to add please write as to what it is.



This suggestion has 2 supports and 10 NO supports.



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Edited on 24/07/18 @ 14:17:46 by LovelyInLace (#129426)

flyteck [G2 Hibiscus
Frail] (#40496)

Good Natured
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Posted on
2018-07-24 14:22:12
The special percentage is low for a reason; it keeps special bases valuable. They're already worth less than they should be because the market is bad, so making them easier to breed wouldn't help. I'd say the current chances are fine - if special should go up, maybe to like 40% at most. But I don't think its enough to be worth changing in the code.

I'm not touching the colour groups because they're confusing and I don't want to do anything with that - it can stay, it can change.

EDIT: Something else I've noticed in your colour groups: I imagine that medium would be equivalent to a recessive gene.

If L is light (dominant), D is dark (dominant), and m is medium (recessive)

[] [] L m
D DL Dm
m Lm mm
(DL would be co-dominant medium)

There's your chance for all colour groups. Lioden genetics don't need to be /more/ complex, or as complex as real genes. Nothing is actually recessive - parental genes don't matter. For breeding interest I'd say defaulting to something like the above for all bases, vs assuming that light is (LL) or something, keeps breeding variable without complicating it further.

I know the above model doesn't work for medium breeding, but once again, thats a rarity thing. Mediums are meant to be harder to pass. If medium x medium was 100% medium, there would be no trouble breeding it. Same reason special x special can't be 100% special.

BASICALLY Lioden genetics are not meant to be real-world genetics. They function well enough, and trying to make them perfectly realistic will just drain the challenge from a lot of breeding and destroy value for a lot of bases.



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Edited on 24/07/18 @ 14:33:36 by flyteck (#40496)

Ely | Cocytus [G1
Wine] (#106865)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-07-24 14:23:00
No support. The Lioden genetics are just fine, and the specials are meant to be harder to obtain, especially with the special specials, which are breed or raffle only. If we increase the rates, the specials will become commonplace, and no longer special. The only genetic that needs to be messed with is albino. And if you look at people, medium shades don't show up as mich between dark-light pairings as it does when one parent is a medium. The dark-light-medium ratio is fine as is.



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Edited on 24/07/18 @ 14:27:01 by Elyden |HM|Çß| (#106865)

mintea [PM #148843] (#147367)

Malicious
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Posted on
2018-07-24 14:25:48
No support --- I understand what you are trying to say and I definitely agree it makes more sense from a logical/numerical point of view. However, special bases and special special bases are intentionally more difficult to breed and I think it's difficult to reconcile rare drop rates with the percentages that you are suggesting :3



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