Posted by -LOCKED - The Final Straw (WIP)

Max (#100533)

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Posted on
2023-12-28 02:28:37

With my interest in Lioden lingering because of the crashed market, the abundance of apps and MODs and the general tone deaf way certain situations are handled, I decided now is a good time to make this post.

As some of you know, asking a person a direct question will (more often than not) yield a direct answer. And so, since many seem to be tip-toeing and assuming, I will provide you with a comprehensive story.

"Is my art AI?"

I stuck up with you all for so long, I'm not going to give a TLDR. If you want to know, you can read through this post.

I've been drawing since the early 2000s. Some of you know my Tumblr or Deviantart; both of which I haven't posted any recent art on since... years. Tumblr is overrun by bots and Deviantart is swarmed with furries (in the negative sense of the word) so I didn't have an active platform to post my things on. Anyone could see my art activity well before AI programs became public.

After coming back to Lioden after a long hiatus, I wanted to make some custom decor. Drawing scenery and backgrounds has always been my weakest point. This was around the time I began using Midjourney to make scenery for the private homebrew DnD sessions between myself and my close friends. I knew what I wanted to make as Custom Decor, checked the rules thoroughly and, lo behold, there was not a single rule present about not using AI-assisted works. If there was, then I would not have bothered. This was in early to mid February. I got it submitted and it was approved, as I assumed it would.

This is a screenshot of the CD in question:



After its approval, I made a few more varieties and also submitted them. There was still no update on the rules at this point in time.

My remaining submissions were rejected on the 27th or February and the Coral Reef Arch was removed. I received this message:



Alright. I'm not going to argue. So I left it at that. Shame they hadn't put it in their rules beforehand, but hé. Back to the drawing board for me. At this point, I still loved the idea of archway decor and decided to try again, without AI (as I now knew would be against their policy.). Like I mentioned, backgrounds were not my strongest point so I figured I'd keep it simple and draw a rocky archway; which seemed manageable with my skillset. And so I did.



I also kept this WIP to show my process.



This was submitted and... soon after... rejected. This was the message I received:



Note the date. So because I had previously submitted something assisted by AI, the Mods decided they were going to reject this one too. Solely on something I did MONTHS before, which; mind you; was technically not against ANY Lioden rules at the time.

The updated Custom Decor rules which included the rule that doesn't allow AI tools were announced in the news post on the 21st of April.

What happened the first time, happened in FEBRUARY.
I pointed this out to them and this was the response:



Looks like it's mutual. Seems like we do agree on something after all.

Whatever. Not worth my time any more. As many of you have seen with my old work; even from YEARS ago; drawing characters IS my forté. I don't need any help with that. So I went back to doing what I do best: drawing OCs.

I drew my own king a few times, as seen on my den page, I also drew other people's kings and OCs, etc. I provided WIPs whenever they liked, gave updates on how things were going and made adjustments along the way. All was well.

A few recent examples of art I made for other Liodenners:




This is my latest work of my own king Kobus:



And there is the WIP:



I lied to you all: I AM going to give you a TL:DR
Yes, I used AI once to submit a custom decor.
No, I don't regret it because it was not against the rules at the time. Don't dig up old bones, you know.
No, any of my character art or commissions is not AI assisted. JUST that Custom Decor arch. That's it.
Screenshot this all you like, for this will likely be the last thing you see of me here on Lioden before this is blocked.
Abandon ship.

Life lesson: If you want answers... ask the person you want answers from. I've always been very open on this topic if one asks me.




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Lex 🦋 {Brief
Hiatus for Work} (#56485)

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Posted on
2023-12-28 06:56:29
The Lioden Custom Decor rules have always stated that you must create the art yourself. I have been doing custom decor actively since 2016. Those rules have never changed. The art must be done yourself, if not done by yourself, you must credit the artist. Who do you credit when you use Ai? Who are you stealing from? You do not have the permission of the artists that the tool stole from, and they did not give you permission to then go on to sell the product, even for ‘fake’ currency.

I do not know what you expected to come out of this, but you will never ever look good for admitting to using ai to steal from other artists on a website run by artists and survived by the artistic community. In using ai to steal, and openly admitting that you don’t even feel bad about it, you have completely lost any shred of empathy you were expecting to get out of an audience of peers by posting a thread. Why would anyone feel bad that you’re fed up when you don’t feel bad about ripping off other artists?



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🎩Fancy fork
[Cutlery] 🍴 (#427147)

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Posted on
2023-12-28 07:10:28
@Lex
wait AI rips off other artists? didn't know that

The second custom decor looks fine and you didnt use AI, don't know why that was rejected unless you used some other kind of AI tools? I don't know how AI works.



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Lex 🦋 {Brief
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Posted on
2023-12-28 07:49:43
Ai models are trained on artworks from multiple artists. I would suggest looking into how they work, there are multiple valuable resources showing how damaging they are to artists. Here are a few:

https://youtu.be/_S-weCoA83M?si=hlznI5o8GdKxoTvB

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-lensa-ai-and-image-generators-steal-from-artists

https://juliabausenhardt.com/how-ai-is-stealing-your-art/


The Lioden mods are rejecting their decors because they have shown they cannot be trusted to not be using ai. That is all there is to it. No matter how fine it looks, the trust is no longer there. They say that in the screenshots rejecting the custom decors.



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Valli [Project
Torture] (#128936)


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Posted on
2023-12-28 19:06:55
If you are to be a trusted artist, why resort to using AI in the first place? Regardless of if the rules directly stated if AI was okay or not, its more so a moral thing. Using something you did not fully create from start to finish doesn’t feel like a clean use of CD space imo.

Especially given the artists for the game HAVE laxed the rules for CDs, I see no reason to resort to AI. The mods reject your initial one? Use it as a building block! They’re almost always more than happy to give feedback on how to better fit the decor submitted to their standards.



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Euzi {G5 11k Full BO
5×Strat} (#77137)


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Posted on
2023-12-28 19:11:18
Agreed with Lex. Clearly you have artistic talent yet chose the lazy, talentless, theft route to submit a custom decor and now are shocked when it slaps you in the face and act as if the admins are the bad guys? All art submitted must be done by yourself - AI is not art. You typing in some words and downloading a picture does not make it "your art". It's cruelly ironic that you as an artist, choose to use and attempt to profit off of a system that hurts artists.



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Toryou~ On break
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Posted on
2023-12-28 19:59:12
Not trying to sound rude or mean at all but all your "WIPs" just look like outlines of the finished product, there are no real rough sketches or half colored drawings. I'm sure if you can provide a simple time lapse this whole thing would be solved.



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ravenkhor (#270475)

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Posted on
2023-12-28 22:09:50
I am a custom decor artist with over 50 decors submitted as of now. I thought I should give my 2 cents on this even if it doesn't matter really.

Using AI, even just to assist, destroys the whole meaning of making Custom Decors in the first place. They are labors of love, and AI completely undermines the dozens, if not hundreds of hours people spend in total creating their custom decors.

I highly suggest sharing speedpaints, rather than photo wips. It is not hard. Most programs automatically record anyway nowadays.

Also, you would think if you are able to churn out such a detailed, sculpted piece of art of that remade stone arch, you'd be able to put proper shadows where the rocks meet the ground, and make it match the style of drop shadow the lion has. Instead, it is very obviously only 1 layer of black bumped down in opacity, and the rocks do not even attempt to work seamlessly with the angle of the lion's stance. The drop shadow shading doesn't even match the shading on the rocks.




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Edited on 28/12/23 @ 22:18:06 by 🎁 | ravenkhor | 4.8.22 g2 pie (#270475)

ravenkhor (#270475)

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Posted on
2023-12-28 22:29:20
PS. You are most likely the reason WHY that rule was added. You were case 0.



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Toryou~ On break
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Posted on
2023-12-28 23:19:46
Also, using photoshop (which you mentioned in someone else's den) you are able to record your time lapse. Tbh just submitting proof of an actual time lapse of you sketching, coloring, lineart, and shading will make this whole "Ai" thing go away.

Imgur link of Max saying they use photoshop to create their art;
https://i.imgur.com/rwB9c55.jpg



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Edited on 28/12/23 @ 23:21:25 by Toryou~ x12 BO Nefer G2 Pie (#283359)

snowmew [G1 14BO
Abyssinian] (#63212)


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Posted on
2023-12-29 00:52:39
I really don't know what the aim of this post was. There is no sympathy to be given, as you don't have any remorse from it. You lost credibility as an artist and that should be expected when you do things such as use AI.



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Krista [G1 Bushveld
14 x BO] (#367870)


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Posted on
2023-12-29 04:28:57
Toryou I'm not defending AI art or anything but I think that screenshot just means they draw in photoshop. I used to use photoshop a lot as it had multi layer drawing ect.

So I just sketch on one page then add a new layer to go over my line art ect and just remove the sketch and so on. Basically just using it as an art pad with my digital pencil.

So still all original drawing ect, not saying that is or isn't the case here I don't personally know just wanted to make the point that photoshop csn be used for drawing ect too



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Lex 🦋 {Brief
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Posted on
2023-12-29 04:35:24
Toryou is saying that the program they use, and that they have been confirmed to use, offers Timelapses and they should post those instead of screenshots. Xylax, the main artist for Lioden, uses photoshop, I’ve used photoshop for the 200+ custom decors I’ve made, photoshop is allowed to be used to draw with. They just need to post Timelapses instead of screenshots.



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Krista [G1 Bushveld
14 x BO] (#367870)


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Posted on
2023-12-29 04:58:46
They said
"Imgur link of Max saying they use photoshop to create their art"

So thought they meant actual art as didn't mention time-lapse



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Lex 🦋 {Brief
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Posted on
2023-12-29 05:57:20
You should reread what they said in the first paragraph before they said that :) they’re just asking for Timelapses! The photoshop comment was just there as proof they use photoshop.



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Lex 🦋 {Brief
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Posted on
2023-12-29 06:22:49
Another thing to point out: When you admit to dishonesty, it isn’t just areas where you WERE dishonest that people will start to scrutinize. You’ve admitted to using Ai to cheat custom decors. How do we know that you also haven’t traced or frankensteined to cheat your commissioners?

IMG-1096
IMG-1097

Because you have already admitted to lying, even a similar pose should be cause to raise an eyebrow. You cannot really expect your character to be judged positively when you have admitted to cheating and express no regret. You have proven you can’t be trusted. I still cannot fathom how you think this paints you in a positive light at all. How can you walk into a community of artists and act like you’re the victim when you actively support software that was made with the intention of costing artists their jobs?



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