Posted by Introducing cubs mortality and other realistic fea
WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-28 08:09:11
So, this might be highly unpopular among some players, but it seems like it’s gainning support after all. Now that we’ve been pondering this for a few days, added ideas and crunched some numbers, I am editing the topic to present the results we have reached more comprehensively.

Please note that the entire point is not to prevent anyone from playing their preffered way nor to dictate to anyone the “proper” ways to play the game! The point is to make this game look more like it’s advertisement – simulation of the life of a pride of wild lions – and to make the gameplay more complex, more realistic and overall, more interesting.

sections:



A) Starting premises
B) Ideas – 1 to 4



1) Do away with studding
2) Introduce cubs mortality rates (now in full detail)
3) Make pregnancy more demanding
4) Make breeding cost energy



C) Blurbs, ideas and other misc notes
D) Q&A



SPECIAL NOTE:
A lifetime supply of coffee and cookies for DragonSage [Raion] (#4453) for doing the majority of detailed number crunching, adding a ton of useful ideas and being of immense help with this overall! <3





A) Starting premises:




1)This is a lion sim game, not a domestic kitty breeding game. Therefore, realistic features simulating the (harsh) life of the lions in the wild should be at the core of the game, not spam-breeding “purdy” cats.


2) Right now, the site is being flooded with tons of unwanted cubs that can’t sell, can’t be given away, can’t be used for anything really. And yet, they keep coming and coming. These are the ways of both making the game more realistic, curbing the flood of excess cubs, making the game more interesting and challenging and, as a side bonus, perhaps stabilizing the economy as well.





B) Ideas:






1) Do away with studding!


Yes, yes, I know the chant - The studding feature was introduced because too many players got scammed out of their lionesses that way.

Well... So what?

What could (and should!) have been done instead is a simple note from the developers and the admins of the game, stating that:

"We do not support or encourage outside studding. If you send a lioness to another player for any reason, that lioness now belongs to them. We will not go 'rescuing' your lionesses from other players so don't bug us about it - You have been warned, you took the risk, now live with it and be smarter next time."

Yes, it could have been that simple. And should have been that simple, too.

Want a cub by a particular male lion? - Go buy the cub from that player, end of story.


Aside from reducing the number of cubs on the game plus reinstating some value to the cubs, especially the cubs of high-end males out there, doign away with studding will also bring about some much needed realism to the game.

In the wild (and this is supposed to be a simulation of a wild lion pride), the only way for a foreign lion to mate with the females of another pride is for said foreign lion to take over the pride. Rarely, it will happen that a foreign lion manages to sneak past the pride leader and mate with one of his females undetected, but the moment those cubs are born, the pride leader will kill them off.

It thus stands to no reason nor logic whatsoever to allow any 'outside studdings' on this game at all. In fact, it is something that should be actively discouraged instead of being made even easier. We are not on a domestic kitty breeding game, people!

1a) Trading ‘families’

At first, I was going to do away with these all together. However, DragonSage [Raion] (#4453) had a better idea, especially since, as much as I’d want it to happen, it is not very likely that studding will be removed.

Now, if a foreign lioness comes into the pride already bearing cubs by another lion, or already having them with her, the first thing the pride leader would do would be to instantly kill the foreign lion's cubs, thus forcing the new lioness into heat faster and then making sure the next litter of cubs is his and his alone.

Originally, this was going to be the reason why, if a pregnant lioness or a lioness with young cubs is traded, the pregnancy would be instantly terminated/the cubs would be instantly removed from her. However!

DragonSage suggests that higher-level lionesses would be more capable of defending their cubs from the new male then lower-level ones. Therefore, tie the lioness/lion level/stats odds to the possible mortality of the cubs bred by another lion. In other words, give a percentage chance for the 'foreigner' cubs to survive the transfer to a new pride and make that chance higher the higher their mother's level is.

Far as numbers go, I would use a modified “litter protection” table that DragonSage used for calculating cubs mortality odds. Namely, something like this:

starting chance of cubs being killed upon transfer: 100% - if we ask the lion only
starting chance of cubs being killed upon transfer: 0% - if we ask the lioness only

and so:

actual starting chance of cubs being killed upon transfer: 50%

Now, we compare the ‘home’ lion’s level to the mother lioness’.
---For every level the lioness has, the odds of the cubs being killed goes down by 2%,
---For every level the lion has, the odds of the cubs being killed goes up by 1%
---Level one entails 0% in either direction, levels above 1 are counted!
---Odds are to be rolled seperately for every cub in the litter.

Sooo… (subject to further revisions)

Lion/Lioness 1 5 15
1 50% 42% 22%
5 54% 47% 26%
15 64% 57% 36%




I’d say these are fair odds. Yes, the chance of other male’s cubs getting killed are high – They are supposed to be high! And yes, these numbers would apply to the cubs that are a result of you using the studding feature! See the last section for more about this, please.

Besides, one way to offset this is to level your pride, which is something the game already set before you as your goal, as something the game is about to begin with. Check the last square, level 15 lion vs level 15 lioness: 36% chance of a dead cub. That is not that much, and not to even mention that, by the time your lion hits level 15, your lionesses are likely to be at least level 20 or so anyway – in that case, the odds of your cub getting killed are miserly 16%.

~~~~~~~~




2) Introduce cubs mortality rates!


In the wild, only 10% of the cubs survive to their first year of life. Out of those 10%, even fewer survive to adulthood. Having cubs randomly die has been suggested before and was not recieved well. Partly, I agree - too much of a random factor to it. However, if it were to be made less random and more realistic.... that would be another thing entirely.


Carrying a pregnancy up to term is an extremely energy-costly affair. Caring for the resulting offspring afterwards for a full year or so is no less a strain on the female of the species. And there are always multiple factors at work that can make that already-tasking process even more difficult - lack of food, random predators, diseases and other calamities that threaten both the mothers and their cubs.

So, how to emulate that on the game without making it virtually impossible to actually raise some cubs?

What I will present here now is the result of DragonSage doing the major numbers crunching and than shooting it back and forth until we were both satisfied with the end results. You can see the evolution of the mortality rates on pages 4 and 5 of the comments.

And so, on to the show:

~~~~~~~~~~~

First off, we’ll set a base flat percentage chance for the cub to die on any given day during the twelve days it takes for it to mature. That base chance is 50% on the day the cub is born.

And now, we are adding in the factors that can either bring the chance down or bring it even further up.

Factors that reduce the chance of the cub duyig are fairly simple and achievable by all players... with only little tought and effort put into it. Most of theem consist of doing what the game assumes you are doing every day anyway, so really, this is more a case of attaching some additional value to the regular game play things than trying to make you go well out of your way to ensure your cubs’ survival.

~~~~~
important note:

The percentages we are discussing here are a “day forward” percentages, mostly because upon reset, everyone starts the day with 20% hunger and a reduction of mood. Therefore, what matters is not how your cub started the day but how did it end the previous day.

In other words, on the day your cub is born, it has 50% flat chance to wake up dead the following day. If, during the current day, you bring that chance down to 0%, that means that your cub has 0% chance of waking up dead tomorrow, after the restart.

Tomorrow, after the code refreshes, your cub starts the day with a newly calculated chance of dying the day after, which you can once more bring down to 0% or close to that.
~~~~~~



Starting influences on the base 50% chance of death:


The Parents

---Parents’ Levels

Emulates the fact that higher-level, aka more experianced, lions will do much better at both providing enough food for the pride, finding more suitable shelters and water supplies as well as be that much better at protecting their dens (and by extansion, the cubs) from various predators. It also emulates the fact that lions who lived long enough to get to higher levels are the lions that are overall stronger and healthier, and thus more likely to produce strong, healthy cubs with better reflexes and better immunity to various diseases.

The scale is proposed by DragonSage and after the extensive number crunching (see page 4 of the comments), it’s the one that turned out to work best:

Average level=Protection Percentage In other words we average the parents levels (rounded DOWN) and use that as the percentage to subtract from risk of death.
So for example:
• A LVL 1 male and a LVL 1 female would subtract 1% from the percentage
• A LVL 5 male and a LVL 1 female (average 3) would subtract 3% from the percentage
• A LVL 5 male and a LVL 5 female (average 5) would subtract 5% from the percentage
• A LVL 15 male and a LVL 12 female (13.5 so 13) would subtract 13% from the percentage


---Previous Parenting Experience

Emulates the fact that those lions who managed to successfuly raise a litter of cubs before will naturaly be more apt at doing that the next time around. Note that only the litters in which at least one cub succesfully made it to adolescence counts. Not only does it make sense realism-wise, but it will also prevent the players from spam-breeding the lionesses and than chasing them away immediatelly after the cubs’ boirth in order to beef up the Previous Parenting Experience percentage.

Scale proposed by me:


number of successful previous litters effect on the cubs’ chance of death
1-3 -5%
4-6 -10%
7-9 -15%
10-12 -20%
13+ -30%
The Cubs

---Cub’s Stats at Birth

Emulates the fact that the higher-statted cubs are the cubs that are stronger, with faster reflexes, more intelligent, more resistant to diseases and are, overall, more fit to survive than their weaker counterparts. For every 10 stats above 35 (rounded down), there is an additional flat -1% chance of the cub dying. So, for example:

A cub born with 35 stats or less gets a -0% chance of death
A cub born with 45 stats gets a -1% chance of death
A cub born with 85 stats gets a -5% chance of death
A cub born with 200 stats gets a -16% chance of death

This percentage would get recalculated daily since the cubs do occasionally gain skil from playing and also, might get a random stat boost from food or toys which could up their chances of survival the following day.



---Cub’s Age – idea by DragonSage

Emulates the fact that, as the cub grows older, its skills improve and so do its chances of survival. In other words, every day the cub does not die is the day the cub got a little better at not dying. So, a newly-born cub would have -0% chance of death. 1 game month (aka, 1 real day) old cub would have -1% chance of death, 2 months old cub would have -2% chance of death… and finally, 11 months old cub would have -11% chance of waking up dead instead of waking up an adolescent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The groundwork now being set, I’ll now lay out the ways to bring the chance of your cubs dying either up or down:




Ways to lessen the chance of the cub duying:

---Feeding the Cub
(-10% chance of Death)
Emulates the most basic needs of the nursing mothers and developing cubs being taken care off.
*Note that during the first six days of the cub’s life, the ‘feeding’ pertains to the cub’s mother, not the cub itself.

---Playing with the Cub
(-5% chance of Death)
Emulates the cub getting needed skills and survival instincts installed into it at an early age, thus increasing its chances of survival.

---Giving the Cub a Toy
(-5% chance of Death)
Emulates the cub getting additionaly stimulated in gaining needed skill and survival instincts.
*Note that the cubs cannot be given toys until they turn 6 months old. Until that time, either a) playing with cub gives -10% to the chance of dying or b) giving the nursing mother a toy lowers the odds by 5% - I have no preferences either way, so whichever option is easier to code in would work.


---Monkey Business Items - idea by Pasha (#5512) (MIB for short from now on)

With all the complaints about there not being enough things to spend your SBs on, here is one thing that will be a worthy investment.

The items in question could be, for example, a healthy root the cub can gnaw at, a pile of dry leaves that keeps the den warmer for the night or let’s just say that the male stimulated his glands especially well that day and thus left his scent on the cub so strongly that day that it serves as an excellent detterent for the predators (more about the items and the accompanying blurbs in the final section).

One important note here – and I cannot stress this enough! – whatever the items are, they most definitelly must not be Oasis GB-only stuff! The idea is to make raising cubs a challenge, not to tie in a crucial part of the game to cash payments!

Anyway, there would be three items with varying effects: -5%, -10% and -15% chance of death respectively. And they would not be anything pricy! Raising cubs is toughest on low levels, when the players are not exactly swimming in SBs; conversly, on higher levels and with plenty of SBs, you’d hardly need even the lowest-end MIB. The point is to make these things easily accesible to all players, not just those who are already well-off and hardly need them anyway.

Therefore, the prices should be set thusly:
-5% = 3 SB (Healthy Root) --- use on the cub?
-10% = 6 SB (Dry Leaves Pile) --- use on the mother?
-15% = 10 SB (Male Scent Enhancer) --- use on the male?

If you are doing any fighting or exploring at all, you can easily find enough SBs to more than cover for even the highest item daily. If you have only one cub to take care of and decide to use the highest protection item every day, you would end up spending 120 SBs over the course of 12 days. Which is really, really not much at all.


special protection

---Assigning a Brood Mother to the Cubs

Emulates the fact that, while the bulk of the pride is out hunting or patroling the territory, any number of things can happen to the cublets – from them being too bored and, unsupervised, wandering away too far to a hungry predator sneaking in and making a quick snack of lion-like little furballs. And this is where the Brood Mother comes in.

She is there to watch over the cubs while their mothers are away, to put up with their mischieves, play with them, make sure they don’t wander away and finally, to protect them from any danger that might threaten them.


~brood mother concept explained~

It could be lioness – a random one from the pride, or the one with the most litters behind her or the oldest lioness of the pride or… whatever. Or! It could be the job of the adolescents to look after the cubs. Personally, I preffer the adolescents for this role, for several reasons. For one, it would give the adolescents something to do aside from sitting around and eating your food. It would also be a learning experience for them – they would gain random stat boosts from taking care of the next generation.

DragonSage proposes the following:

For each cub under her care, each day the broodmother has a chance at gaining a stat or stats. Perhaps 10-20% per cub; if the total exceeds 100%, she gets a stat and the extra percentage goes towards another stat. For example if the percentage was 120% she'd get one stat and a 20% chance at a second stat.

--If this were the case, than I’d say there should be a maximum number of cubs a single brood mother can concievably keep an eye on. I’d say around 6 should be the norm. For every cublet over 6, you’d ned to assign a second brood mother. Of course, this would also mean some coding be added to the adolescent’s pages, namely, the assigned cubs section.

I am adding another idea:

Every Brood Mother assignment a lioness (or an adolescent male for that matter) had during her (his) adolescence counts towards the “Previous Parenting Experience” . Thus, if a lioness is about to have her first litter but she had been a brood mother for 1-3 litters while she was young, she would automatically give the -5% base chance of dying to her first litter insead of the -0% she would have without previous brood mothering experience behind her.


~brood mother role~

What a Brood Mother would actually be is the ‘last line of defense’ for your cubs. If you did everythign in your power to keep the cublet alive – bred it to have good stats, fed it, played with it, gave it a toy and used a MIB on it and still your cublet wakes up dead the following day, if a Brood Mother is assigned to that particular cub, the cub gets one ‘saving throw’ added to it: 50% chance that a ‘dead’ cub did not end up dead after all.

The blurbs for this could be varied and amusing:

“A hungry hyaena snuck into your den and ~almost~ made away with [cub’s name]. However, [brood mother’s name] intervened and chased the hyaena away at the last moment, thus saving [cub’s name]”

“[cub’s name] wandered far from your den while chasing a butterfly. However, [brood mother’s name] found it and brought it back before it got ~too~ far away.”


…well, you get the idea.

~~~
edit
Idea by:Idania (#14667)

Have it set so that the more cubs a brood mother is assigned to, less percentage is taken off the cubs' mortality rates.
And, since adolescents are younger and more experienced, the risk would be greater leaving them with the cubs than an adult female or sub male.

So, say leaving one cub with a sub male, adult female, or adolescent gives that cub -15% off their mortality rate for the day. As a brood mother takes on more cubs, the way that lessens is different depending on her being an adult or adolescent.

So, let's say the cap is at 6 cubs per day per brood mother.
For an adult lioness or sub male the percentages would be affected thus

1 cub -15% off cub mortality rate
2 cubs -14%
3 cubs -13%
4 cubs -12%
5 cubs -11%
6 cubs -10%

But for an adolescent, it would be affected as so

1 cub -15% off cub mortality rate
2 cubs -13%
3 cubs -11%
4 cubs -9%
5 cubs -7%
6 cubs -5%

And, to keep everyone from simply giving every lioness in the pride a cub to watch, have it set that females with a cub assigned to them cannot go hunting. Nor can sub males with a cub assigned to them go patrolling.
-----------------------------------------

On another note, there could be an addition to the "Explore" section for sub males watching cubs. Maybe have an option for the sub male to take cubs (only those 6months or older) out on a patrol with him.
It would be a chance for cubs to gain stats, as they would be learning about protecting the pride as well as getting to know their territory boundaries.

You could have it set that a sub male can only take a certain amount of cubs at a time based on his level, too (which would involve including a feature to level up sub males).

Level 1-5 -> can only take 1 cub patrolling at a time
Level 6-10 -> can take out 2 cubs at a time
Level 11-15 -> can take out 3 cubs at a time

And so on. You could have 3 cubs be the cap, seeing as most people are more concerned with leveling up their lionesses and main male. However, it does give the sub males another use, which I feel they could really use.

Could have it set that adolescents can be taken out on these patrols as well, provided they aren't assigned any cubs at the time.

~~~

Of course, just as there would be (easy) ways for you to prevent your precious cubs from meeting an untimely end, carelessness on your part could just as easily help them along their way to the eternal hunting grounds.


Ways to highten the chance of the cub duying:


---Not feeding the mothers (and later on the cubs) every day
(+15% dying chance)
Emulates the most basic needs of the nursng mothers and developing cubs not being taken care off. Since it's the most basic needs, not fulfilling those adds a significantly higher chance to the cubs' mortality chances.

---Not playing with the cubs daily
(+10% dying chance)
Emulates the cubs not getting needed skills and survival instincts installed into them at an early age, thus increasing their chances of survival.

~~~~~~~~~~

So now, let us look at the end results of all this math! For the following examples, I am assuming that both parents are of the same level and that the cub born has average 35-ish stats. This is a likely scenario on the lower levels and an unlikely one on higher levels because with higher level aprents, the cubs also gain the reduction of the chance of death from their stats as well. I will also assume that, if the MIB is used, it is the lowest-end one, the one that gives only -5% death chance.


Level 1 Parents, 1 Previous Litter

50% base chance of Death
---------------------
-1% Parent Level
-5% Previous Litter Experience
--------------------
*44% actual chance of Death
--------------------
-10% Feeding Cub
-5% Playing with Cub
--------------------
**29% chance of Death
--------------------
-5% Using a Toy
--------------------
***24% chance of Death
--------------------
-5% MIB
--------------------
****19% chance of Death



Level 5 Parents, 1 Previous Litter

50% base chance of Death
---------------------
-5% Parent Level
-5% Previous Litter Experience
--------------------
*40% actual chance of Death
--------------------
-10% Feeding Cub
-5% Playing with Cub
--------------------
**25% chance of Death
--------------------
-5% Using a Toy
--------------------
***20% chance of Death
--------------------
-5% MIB
--------------------
****15% chance of Death



Level 15 Parents, 1 Previous Litter

50% base chance of Death
---------------------
-13% Parent Level
-5% Previous Litter Experience
--------------------
*32% actual chance of Death
--------------------
-10% Feeding Cub
-5% Playing with Cub
--------------------
**17% chance of Death
--------------------
-5% Using a Toy
--------------------
***12% chance of Death
--------------------
-5% MIB
--------------------
****7% chance of Death




As you can see, it is very easy to bring the odds down with only little time devoted to taking care of your cus which, by the way, is something you are supposed to be doing anyway. Again, when looking at these examples, keep in mind that it’s very unlikely that level 15 or even level 5 parents will have only 1 litter behind them so the odds would go down even further. Also, that higher-statted cublets get the stat protection as well, that every day the cub lives the odds go down by 1% and that, overall, lionesses are of much higher levels than the lions so the actual parent level will offer even more protection.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


3) Make the pregnancy more demanding on the lionesses


We already have the base groundwork laid out for us - if the lioness' hunger falls below 50%, there is a chance the cubs will be stillborn. Well, this is not really being enforced at all from what I've seen so far. What I am suggesting is that not only does this rule get enforced far more strictly but to make it even more demanding!

Carrying babies is the most energy costly physiological process in nature. And in wild animals, if the conditions are harsh, pregnant females routinely reabsorb the foetuses to lessen the energy strain on their bodies.

Following that, if we allow the female's hunger to go below 50%, it should not be a 'chance' but a 'certain thing' that the cubs will be stillborn! So roughly:

50% hunger = 100% chance of stillborn cubs
40% hunger = 80% chance of stillborn cubs
30% hunger = 60% chance of stillborn cubs
20% hunger = 40% chance of stillborn cubs
10% hunger = 20% chance of stillborn cubs
0% hunger = 0% chance of stillborn cubs

And just to up the stakes even more, during the three days period of pregnancy, the females should consume twice the amount of food they would normally. In laymen terms - "they're eating for two now", and in their case, for even more than just two.

~~~~~~~~~~~~



4) Make breeding cost energy!


In the wild, a male lion and the female in heat will distance themselves from the pride and idulge in three to four days of active breeding, several times a day. During that time, sex is the only thing on their minds - they won't hunt and they'll only take small breaks for an occasional snack and a bit of a shuteye. While the practice does ensure the female ends up definitelly pregnant, the whole mating business takes it's toll on the lions involved.

And thus, every breeding should come at an energy cost to the lion: 10% energy lost per breeding, if not 15% or more.

As for the females, since they don't have an energy bar, the day they get bred (at least) is the day during which they cannot hunt.

*Thalassa (#7869) suggests an alternative to this – that the female gets a cooldown period instead so she cannot be sent to hunt 2-4 hours after she was bred.

This would emulate the actual way lions go about it and also, would make the players think and plan their breeding much more carefully: Do I want to put this huntress out of commision for today? Do I want to lose what energy I have on this breeding or do I want to explore or attack another lion instead?

If the studding feature remains in place (and I very much hope that it won't!), at least this, coupled with the "accept/decline" option would help reduce the overall number of bredings done and cublets born.

Because, people, what are we going to do with so many and so many thoroughly devalued ones otherwise?!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





C) Blurbs ideas and other misc notes




I won’t write much in this section actually. This is more of a placeholder to gather the possible blurbs (some of which I suggested up there already), additional ideas from you guys and so on.


Aaand, we have our first batch of blurbs already. DragonSage put the creative hat on :D

Foreign Born Cub Blurbs
[Male Lion] was about to pounce on [Cub Name] however his nose meets with the very sharp claws of [Dam's Name].

While [Dam's Name] attention was elsewhere, [Male Lion] quickly disposed of [Cub's Name].

[Dam's Name] crouched protectively over [Cub Name], staring down [Male Lion] snarling viciously at him until he decides its not worth the risk of injury.


Brood Mother Blurbs
[Cub Name] was almost swooped up by a Martial Eagle; however [Brood Mother] was able to intercept the eagle saving her charge. {{It would be neat if this blurb gave an eagle feather toy}}

[Cub Name] ventured a bit too far into the waterhole, fortunately [Brood Mother] thought this was an excellent time for a swimming lesson.

[Cub Name] saw a snake and went to request a quest; fortunately [Brood Mother] was quicker and soon put an end to that idea.


Cub Death Blurbs
It was a bitterly cold night last night, and [Cub Name] had rolled away from the warm of its mother. Fortunately {Cub Name] won't have to fear the cold in the great den in the sky.

A Martial Eagle snatched [Cub Name] who found out, to its dismay that cubs can't fly.

The sound of pounding hooves was the last thing [Cub Name] heard before it began to play among the stars.

~~~~~~~~~

Waiting for further submissions! :P





D) Q&A




And this would be where I get spiky and very tongue-in-cheek addressing various possible complaints. To those of you who may recognize some of your complaints complied here – No, I am not making fun of you personally nor am I quoting you verbatim. I am merely using what you pointed out as a rough guideline for the ‘questions’ parts. And yes, I am giving myself full freedom to be cheeky about it.

1) Well, what about the new players? They cannot afford the good/pretty cubs from older players early on!

--Yes, and? You were a new player once. Top players were new players once. They had to work their way up and they did – Why do you think new players shouldn’t?


2) If you do away with studding, new players would have to wait ages for their first custom cub!

--No they wouldn’t. There are several ways one can get custom lions early on. The way game devs love the most is to simply pay for customization. Aside from that, there are always older players on here who give the newcomers a starting lion pack and sometimes even donate custom or half-custom lions. But even that aside, new players should wait longer for their first ‘quality’ cubs, whatever they may consider to be ‘quality’ for themselves. What makes you think that handing everyone everything ona silver platter right away is the right thing to do?


3) It’s not fair! I pay for the studding and then all my lovely cublets end up dead!

-- Yes, so? It was your choice to take a risk that is outside studding! Use the feature and be prepared to have some cubs killed as a result. If you want to have succesfull studdings all the time – tough! Lions don’t suffer other lions’ cubs in their pride. And you happen to be playing a lion sim game.

4) So, if my lioness is high-leveled, her ‘outside’ cubs might survive, but I want to breed purdy NCLs/Oasis customs to other lions!

---*shrug* Then that’s the risk you’ll be taking, sorry. Again I’ll point out, you are on a lion sim game, not domestic kitty breeding game.

5) Hang on, you want to make it imposible for me to raise any cubs on here!

--Not really, no. I want to make it more challenging, that’s all. I want you to have to do soemthing other than click the ‘bred’ button once and have everything else served on a platter to you.

6) Now that won’t do! I don’t have the time to lay this game dialy and when I do, I want it to be soemthing relaxing, not stressfull!

---Well, log on, feed the pride, play with them, send the girls to hunt, log off. That’s pretty much all it takes to keep the cubs alive for the most part. It’s also you playing the game. A lion simulation game, therefore a game where the next generation is not a given thing but something to work for.

7) No! Just no! I should be able to play the way I like it and have all my cubs live without me having to worry about them!

---Lion cubs don’t come equiped with a warm cozy den with a regulated temperature, few bags of kitten food, vitamin supplements, shots and regular vet checks. So yes, you do, in fact, have to take care of them if you want to give them a chance at life. If you want to play a game where you don’t have to care for your litters, try a domestic pet breeeding game instead of a wild lions’ life simulation game.

8) You are dumping way too much math on me! How do you expect me to keep up with all the odds and percentges and stuff for every single cub!?

---I do not expect you to keep track of it all, nor do you have to. Most of that are just the percentages that would go into the game code, not something you’ll be worrying about. The cub’s chance of waking up dead will be displayed on their page so you’ll know where you stand without having to worry about any math.

9) What if I don’t have enough SBs or enough food to support my pride and all the cubs?

---Reduce the number of lionesses and cubs in your pride to the number that yo can support.

10) So on top of it all, you want to make me feed my girls twice as much and to make my cublets die before they’re even born?!

---Yes, yes I do want you to feed the females twice as much during the three days that they’re pregnant. Ever seen a pregnant girl before? Do you know what amounts of energy it takes to carry to term successfully? Well… why would your lionesses be any different?

11) And now I’m supposed to also take care of my male’s energy?! But I love breeding my male like crazy – If it starts costing him energy, I won’t be able to do that any more!

---Well, yes and no. No, you won’t be able to cover 100+ females a day with him, no. You can still choose to expand all his available energy on just the breedings though; your choice.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Long term goals

Or in other words, what do I think these suggestions will ultimatelly achieve:

1) They will first and foremost add some much-needed realism to the game, making it tad more difficult but more challenging and rewarding to play. Raising cubs should be a feat, an achievement, not a regular fare.

2) With studding done away with and raising the cubs made more difficult, the value of the cubs themselves would first rise and than stabilize on a reasonable level. Which, in turn, would help improve and stabilize the economy of the game as well.



This suggestion has 512 supports and 42 NO supports.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Edited on 11/08/13 by WitchWolf (#5939)

Vesny (#5395)

Usual
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-29 00:34:15
hehe tnx, you're not doing bad yourself :-D

Well I do like that you should feed mother for 2 during pregnancy...it would discourage people who are struggling with feeding the pride to breed.

I also support that breeding costs energy... It should be implemented in the studding system along with the option to accept and reject breeding... yes you could stud, but only if you accept and your lion has enough energy to breed. This way people would stud less and for higher price so cubs would have more value again and there wouldn't be a ton of unwanted cubs.

But I don't think they'll remove studding, cause it was created on users wish.. Now everyone has a option to play the way they want, they can play like they have a real lion pride and don't use stud system or can use it. So everyone should be happy.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Siliandra (#1137)

Pervert
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-29 00:47:29
Personally I'd find it tedious very fast if I had to look after x cubs, their mortality and then on top of that everything else - it would make breeding a chore - I chase off 99% of cubs I breed anyway, they simply don't cut it.

I can feed pregnant lionesses double and would very much agree to it, even for their mood to randomly fluctuate - they are pregnant, they will be moody and violent, maybe double playing for them as well? I would also get along with energy required for studdings, since the male does a lot of, let's call it "work". I'd also agree that lionesses with cubs under 1yr shouldn't be sold or tranferred - they wouldn't survive or their cubs would get killed.

I just can't see how a person popping on once in a while or even once a day would find easy to remember that they have pregnants to take care of, cubs to lower the mortality of, , let's also do cups, hunting, training, explore (dunno what the new system will require), find and attack a suitable opponent... Once in a while they'd be like "let's forget LioDen today, I can't be bothered, if I never log on they won't die" and some wouldn't be back.




Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Empressabelle (#9280)

Usual
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-29 05:18:58
@Vesny:
I agree with your point about the new studding system. People do have the *option* of using it if they want, but I know several people that still do things the old way and send their lionesses over. I know there's already been a few ideas about tweaking the studding system to add a "private" studding feature...that would be nice.

Like on your stud's page, there could be a breeding requests section and options to accept/reject those requests. Or maybe even to add to that, a minimum stat requirement for the lionesses requesting a breeding(maybe that could encourage players to level their lionesses).



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-29 05:20:28
Vesny,

Thanks for the compliment. I still have some ways to go to reach either of your boys though - I sure as hells don't dare attack eitehr of them! :P

Jokes aside, yes, one of the side-effects would be discouraging breeding when struggling for food. Not trying to dictate "proper" ways to play the game or anything - it jsut stands to basic reason that if you can't feed all the lions you have, why on earth would you want even more hungry mouths on your back?

As for the other thing, I've my own pevees and arguments with studding and the entire cub-mills-based-economy on here so I won't even go into that. The fact remains, those who do have problems because of the bunch of low-cost custom studs out there might also find it beneficial to increase the energy bar for studding.

Of course, those who want to only breed-breed-breed will continue to do so regardless - they'll simply choose to expend all their lion's energy on accepting breeding requests. However!

Give it a month or two and such breeders will find themselves suddenly not so popular any more. Sure, their males will still be all pretty and stuff, but! While they kept breedingand breeding, others spent less energy on breeding and more enrgy on leveling their own custom lions. And with people finally looking for stats and not only markings, many will then likely choose a more costly stud for the chance to get much better and much more sellable cubs.

Well, something along those lines anyway.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-29 05:26:13
Siliandra, I'm not sure I agree with the game becoming too tedious, or at least not for the reasons you stated.

I'll assume that, if a player only has enough time in a given day to log on once or twice, that player won't have a whole heckload of lionesses to take care of to begin with. Five girls, seven maybe? It takes less than five minutes to feed and interact with them all - Again, something the game assumes you're already doing as a part of the regular gameplay.

Just as well, the game assumes that when you have cubs, you feed them and play with them daily. Again, five minutes affair, if that much.Preggo and females in heat have their own 'fire' or 'heart' marks already so there is no confusion about which female would need extra care - extra care that would mean, basically, clicking the mouse twice instead of once.

And as far as those players who'll eventually say "Okies... I think I'll lay off for a while" and then never come back again... Well - Let them! On every game there are players who eventually get bored and leave. Just as well, for there are also always new players signing up, plus a regular hub of players who are going to stick with it. I don't think the game, any game, should be left as simple as possible jsut because some new player might get bored and leave - those that do will get bored and leave anyway.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Illynx (#11886)

King of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 03:13:52
Woohoo, responding in order.

1. Studding
Nephala does not approve. I know that Lioden is supposed to be a game focused around raising a realistic den of lions, and that having foriegn cubs come in and stay is highly NOT realistic, but not every player that arrives at LD is going to know or care about the realistic lives of their virtual critters, and regardless of there being a disclosure in the rules, people are still going to get their lionesses stolen by rude players and cause a huge hubbub all across the forums and cbox. Also, it allows newer players to get pretty lions at reasonable prices so long as they put work into their own lionesses, as some of us haven't played long enough to have a steady influx of SB to be able to afford the nice cubs out of other dens. I do agree that something needs to be done to lessen the number of cubs being bred, but I suggest this; your lion can only breed to 5 or so outside females for every year of his life. This is a good truce, I'd say, as it could easily be explained by a male sneaking onto territory and breeding said female. Now, I'm also going to tie in DragonSage's idea with this. Any lioness having these outside cubs must have good enough stats to be able to defend her babies, elsewise they are immediately chased upon birth. Or, there could be a mini-game option with a lioness in which she has to battle your male daily until the cub is of a certain age in order to keep it in your den. If she loses, bye bye cublets. I know a game would require a lot of coding and work on behalf of the staff, but I think it would make it just a little more fun waiting for your hunts to come back. :3

2. Mortality Rates
I highly approve of this idea. I play a certain horse game because I enjoy the difficulty level they have provided to the players, and I think that Lioden would official cap the level of love I have for that game if it was made to actually be a challenge instead of just fun (not that I mind having fun x3). As long as it is made to where playing the game makes it relatively easy to keep your cubs alive, I'm okay with it. I just don't want it to be impossible or too hard to raise cubs to adulthood, as it would be extremely frustrating, especially the ones out of my favorite girls. However, I don't like the idea of the parenting skill - I think it would make it too hard for new arrivals to the game to feel successful. I know that the thing I was most excited about when I first joined was getting to have cubs, and if it was pretty much decided that your lionesses first few litters were gonna drop off like flies I don't think I'd be in any rush to breed them. I don't believe I would be as disheartened if her first litter was essentially doomed, as with most animals the first generally does, but three? Just the thought of three litters dying in a row makes me sad. :( I think that just sticking to levels of the lionesses and fathers would be good enough for a chance of survival, as I feel that a level 15 lioness/lion should be a decent parent compared to a level 5, having learned while they hunted, explored, and such. Pasha's idea of items, BADASS. I have seen a lot of people griping about having too many SB, and it gives more experienced players rewards for having stuck in with the game for long enough to afford them.
I also really like the brood mom idea and the other cub related activities listed under here. I think that would add another touch of realism to the game, as I myself have often giggled at the thought of a mother and her one month old fluffers running after and taking down a wildebeast. xD I also see a really good opportunity for some side games here, defending your den from an onslaught of hyenas, and it gives a purpose to excess huntresses past the five that you have out hunting.

3. Realistic Pregnancies
Approve, approve, approve. I believe there should also be a chance that she loses her cubs during hunts when hunting pregnant lionesses.

4. Energy Cost
Approve, and very true. :3

Generally I really like these ideas, I feel they make the game more challenging and also relate more accurately to real life lion prides, as well as help reduce the number of cubs on site. :)



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 04:02:28
Nephala,

Thank you for the very detailed reply and well laid-out toughts

I am aware that doing away with studding is not likely to happen but... I'll still be happily pushing for it. On the account of realism and this being a lion sim game not a kitty-breeding game. After all, on every game out there, new players don't have huge bucks or great headstart because... well, they're new players, and that's the way it should be.

But that aside, there are plenty ideas out there, and dragonSage compiled many of them, that deal with other ways of pputting the studding under some sort of control if we can't do way with it all together. If studding is here to stay (sadly), I'll go for the second-best options too.

Limiting breeding per year of life has been suggested before I believe. While it might help, I'm not a great fan of the idea myself - unrealistic, for one and would soon turn highly furstrating. However, I do think that my last two proposals - the energy cost and the realistic pregnancies might serve the same or similar purpose.


On mortality rates, so far it seems I'm getting a fifty-fifty response to the whole thing. I'm hoping that, if I manage (with teh help of otehrs, of course) to crunch the numbers better and show the people that those would make the game challenging and amusing but would *not* make it impossible to raise the cubs, even early ones, I jsut might get a better reception for that.


So on that note, let me see...

50% starting chance of death.
---cub fed: 45% chance of death
---cub played with: 40-35 % chance of death
*(-5% to -10% chance - fluctuates daily)
---*average parent level
(if outside stud is used, we're using the "home" lion's level, not the sire's!)
1-2: - 0 %
3-4: - 5%
5-6: -10%
7-8: -15%
9-10: -20%
---*Monkey item boost used: 20-15% chance of death
---***Previous litters
(average score between the lion and the lioness!)
(only litters from which at least 1 cub made it to adolescence count!)
1-3: -5%
4-6: -10%
7-9: -15%
10-12: -20%
12 and up: -30%

So what do we have now, assuming that you have fed the cub and played with it...

Worst case scenario:
Your lion is level 1, had no previous litters and you don't have the Monkey item = 30% chance of your cub dying the next day. Might seem harsh, but that's less than 1/3 chances of your cub going bye-bye

Average scenario:
Your lion is level 5, has had an average 4 litters so far, you used one Monkey boost item = 10% chance of your cub dying the next day. Well... not that much, right?

And if you can easily pull off a 10% chance on level 5 and only few litters behind you, bringing it down to 0% every time is going to be a breeze.

....now somebody remind me to take these numbers and add them to the main psot, please.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Cullen (#9794)

Usual
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 04:13:40
I hate most of the ideas...To be perfectly honest this game is "supposed" to represent the wild lion but MOST of it in fact does not....how often do u see white, black, gray or red lions running around Africa and with red, hetero, pink, blue or most of the eye colors the game has. I think if your changes were made a significant amount of players would QUIT playing and therefore only hurt the game not help.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 04:21:48
BengalKatz,

While there are definitelly a bunch of things on here that are far from realistic (such as the "too-much-red-filter" mahogany lions for instance), it is stil a game that advertises itself as a lion sim game. therefrore, some realistic aspects are still needed. Moreover, some challenge is also needed.

In fact, there are many more players quitting this game daily exactly because they *lack* challenge and amusement - they don't find spam-clicking the 'breed' button amusing at all.

You are, of course, free to dislike and disagree the ideas - that is perfectly fine. However, "People would quit and this would hurt the game!" is not a valid argument at all:

People looking for sim games of this sort are a varied bunch; there are very few blunders a game can make to actually alienate a significant number of people to hurt itself and maing it more interesting and more complex certainly isn't one of them.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Cullen (#9794)

Usual
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 04:30:58
I feel that there ARE different types of players on here. and YES i do like to breed. I find it more enjoyable to see what my lioness' produce than it is for me to do anything else on here. And i'm sure i'm not the only one. Trying to bring the game to suit one type of player isn't going to do any good. It not like those of us that like to breed can do it back to back to back...we have like a 15 day waiting period so I feel that is reasonable.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Nocila ~Raion~ (#7084)

Merciful
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 04:40:38
While I realize that I will probably be quite frustrated with the game for quite a while if these ideas are implemented, I also must say that I do support them :)



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Illynx (#11886)

King of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 04:59:44
"While I realize that I will probably be quite frustrated with the game for quite a while if these ideas are implemented, I also must say that I do support them :)"

Eloquently stated, Nocila. :3

And I would definitely assist with the math parts at all if I was any good at them. x3 However I feel that with the system you used above it wouldn't be very hard to keep them alive so long as you actually leveled your lionesses before you bred them and do daily interactions, which I do anyway. I'll be glad to stop seeing adolescents in the TC for 300+ SB's who are starving and bored to death. -_-

As far as saying that unrealistic details like coat colors and eye colors make it to where the rest of the game has to be unrealistic, please stop and read the following: the only difficult part of the game as it stands now is based ENTIRELY around the genetics (unless you now count selling cubs as a challenge xD), and it wouldn't be very hard, fun, or rewarding if we were stuck with the way wild lions actually look.

That's all the modifications suggested above are trying to do - make the game more complex and amusing to people who don't find it as much fun to sit and chat on Cbox and breed oodles of cubs for colors and markings as some other people. I'll believe we are losing more players over their boredom than we ever will over doing away with the ease of breeding as it is now.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?


Edited on 30/05/13 by Nephala [TCC] (#11886)

WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 05:03:46
Nocila,

You and me both. ;) But overall, I think they would make the game more fun to play - all we'd need to do is be a bit more careful in our planning, is all.

BenglaKatz,

Of course there are differnt types of players out there. The sole point is to let everyone play as they like, but still add some challenge to the game. Actually, none of these things would prevent you from breeding as you wish. Unless, of course, if you are in habit of leaving your lions to starve and gt bored to tears, but feeding and playing is something the game *already* assumes you're doing daily.

Of course, you'd have to plan the breeding more carefully, but would that be such a fuss? Designate some of your lion's daily energy to the breeding, divert it from other things instead. Make sure you have enough food for the lionesses while they are pregnant. And make sure you can feed the cubs afterwards. Game assumes you are sending your girls to hunt daily, and that, plus the 20 days cooldown, gives everyone plenty of time to stock up on food and other necessities.

So essentially, I am not so much proposing something radically new as I am pinning additional significance to the things we are doing on here already - hunting, feeding, playing, breeding, attacking and so on.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Tigerhawk (#11216)

Remarkable
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 05:13:52
I'll admit that I was a bit hesitant at first when I heard the suggestion of cub mortality, but after reading through your explanation of it I have come to support the idea. It's so hard right now to get any cubs sold since there are cubs everywhere, and I believe this idea will help cut down on the cubs that no one wants.
I also do like the brood mother idea, since as stated before it opens up other possibilities for side events such as defending the cubs from a predator.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2013-05-30 05:28:02
Tiger,

Thanks. I am rather amused that many of you took my little hyaena so literally, though. I merely used it as an illustration of what the brood motehr's purpose could be - more a blurb than the actual event.

I agree that having such events might be interesting but I was reluctant to suggest any of them because it would take a whole heckload of coding to create and implement and also because very similar ideas are already floating around the game suggestions board and I wouldn't want to duplicate them here.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?







Memory Used: 702.93 KB - Queries: 0 - Query Time: 0.00000 - Total Time: 0.00413s