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Posted by | Inbreeding mechanics |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593) Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:03:52 |
Yes. Inbreeding. That thing that many players go "Why do you avoid it it does nothing anyways" about. But please read it all before hitting the "NO support" button; I'd love to hear your thoughts, but please hear me out first. Inbreeding MechanicsIn real life, inbreeding will often cause malformations, mutations and a general detriment of the offspring's health if done to the extreme, and is used to conserve certain desirable traits in animals. We already have the second part easy enough - many breeding projects use the tactic of breeding the son that has the desired trait/s to his mother, or the contrary with a father and his daughters, to produce more lions with those same traits -, but I think it would be interesting to add a bit more complexity to Lioden. What if there was a set system that added a higher chance of miscarriage for each shared relative, with an added, smaller chance of producing a lethal cub, and generally producing offspring with lower stats than they would have normally, or even the possibility of spontaneous infertile cubs? It would certainly add another limit to the breeding system. Why would that be useful?The breeding system has currently a global limit, the fertile lifespan of a lion - from 2 years old to 16 years old for males, females from 2 years to 14, varying due to their own heat cycles and the use of Instant Cub Delivery, two limits to male breedings, and one for females: the males are limited by their own energy when mating with their own females, and the double of the usual energy and studding slots when mating with the lionesses of another player, while the females are limited by a cooldown after giving birth to a litter. And yet, there are easy ways to bypass these limits: the use of Energy Roots to breed within our own lionesses, that and Cape Bulrush for the stud requests, the Black Stallion that ensures the female it's used on will get pregnant the next try, and for females there is the use of Yohimbe Bark to shorten their cooldown - granted, this last item is only available during one Event and it requires a lot of them to make a big difference. Now, Energy Roots and Cape Bulrush are available all year around in the Oasis, and while the Cape Bulrush replenishes 3 stud slots per and costs 3GB - making those 3 additional studdings cost 1GB each at least -, it's rather easy to just buy Energy Roots and offer for people to send their females in heat to your account, along with the payment and other items that they wish for your male to use - at their own risk, that is. This means that the original 15 studdings limit - which would add a max of 60 new cubs to the game each week - is bypassed completely, and the amount of lionesses for them to breed now depends on the level of trust this player is given balanced with how much people want to stud to their male. A player could breed thousands of cubs, instead of the potential max of 24 cubs per lioness - the biggest litter is 4 and a lioness has a heat every 2 years until she's 14 years old, which means she can have around 6 natural heats - he could have in his own pride, plus the max amount of 2520 cubs if this male spent all of his weekly stud slots every week starting from 2 years old until he was forced to retire at 16, without using any of the items listed above. Even if we cut those numbers by half - because 1 and 2 cub litters are the most common - that amount of cubs produced by a single male is insane. How many of those cubs end up clogging the Trade Center, not quite meeting the requirements of their breeders, and yet having cost too much to be used as fodder and disappear from the database? How many of those cubs in the Tree, where they get their stats lowered to NCL amounts from before the overhaul of the system, and thus losing potential owners? With the implementation of an inbreeding system the mass breeding would slow down, either because the stillbirth regulates the amount of cubs produced or more players take their time to plan for a breeding searching for a partner with whom they share goals, if they don't want to risk it with the inbreeding penalty, letting the market breath and rejuvenate itself - and before you protest, yes, I know studdings to highly sought out lions take weeks and even months, and a lot of resources. This is meant for more studs to be sought for the players, instead of the same group all the time, which would even the market by adding more competitors, and thus lowering the prices, even. What would it consist of?To keep it well balanced, the lethal mutations would have to be a lower chance than using a CRB - whatever that chance is - but it'd be an added thing to roll when the cubs are conceived. And we already have miscarriages when a lioness isn't nested or isn't well fed, only that this would be a cumulative chance of a set percentage per shared relative, around 1%, even when that lioness is sated and nested. To avoid having everyone suffering from the penalties suddenly, this could be introduced gradually over a couple or real time months, when players have the chance of starting to reach out for lions unrelated to their own and the coders can go over everything a bit more calmly. The penalties could work in two diferent ways, but it's always calculated with the amount of repeated ancestors a lion has in his/her full heritage: first, by substracting the corresponding percentage of the inherited stats from a parent. Both parents would suffer this independently, before the resulting stats combined to be the ones of their offspring. If we take up to the Great-Great Grand-Parents of the parents, which would be up to a 30% of penalty per parent in the worts of cases; second, by adding a chance of the cubs of the litter being stillborn, rolling individually for each cub, and being the result of the sum of both the parents' penalties, divided by 2, which would result in a 15% of a cub being stillborn in the worst of cases. There's a lot of controversy regarding the possibility of a slightly higher chance of lethal mutations, so there's the option of creating a unique mutation for the system - a runt lion of sorts - that would be infertile and wouldn't be able to hunt, breed, patrol or be a king, maybe have a shorter lifespan, or having no additional mutation chance at all. Along with this, there'd be a chance - the same as the penalty - to produce spontaneus infertile lions. Summarized, inbreeding could entail:
Frequent comments:
*Note: Given the amount of feedback this has received, I will no longer reply to every single one; the OP is very clear on both the basis of the suggestion as well as the issues it was inspired of, and you are free to agree or disagree; just please don't take it on me as player. If you have doubts after reading it, feel free to PM and I'll try my best to explain myself better when I have the time. Nothing would please me more than to find a middle ground for the reasonable issues mentioned over the replies to be resolved, or even have another, better suggestion be born from this one. |
Vanagandr (#85363)
Total Chad View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:36:20 |
sorry for the double post ^^" 0 players like this post! Like? Edited on 02/04/17 @ 11:39:15 by Vanagandr (#85363) |
Azara (#65842)
Astral View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:36:24 |
Ah, I was just stating that that's my only problem in game. I spend too much for my own good. ^^; I can see how this would positively affect sales though. It may even out the standard prices of things. 0 players like this post! Like? |
LittleAntler (#30151)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:39:11 |
Here's a helpful article on the effects of inbreeding in lion populations. It's very lengthy, but I can predict that some form of illness/injury system will be implemented in the future (be it through suggestions or through plans by staff) and illness can be one of the many things affected by extreme inbreeding : https://lionalert.org/page/inbreeding-depression-in-lions 0 players like this post! Like? |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:41:55 |
This goes to everyone in general: If this were implemented, it would in no way harm the beginnings of a pride, be it from a new player or someone that wanted to have a fresh start. It's been thought mostly for the long run, and it naturally - and very, very subtly - regulates the stat market, giving everyone a chance, and it would encourage players to trade among themselves their own offspring to avoid the negative effects, if they wish to. It would certainly harm the highest stated males, because those are based on inbreeding high stated lions again and again, and this would make their conception a bit harder, with spontaneous inferile offspring and with lower stats than would be expected with the system as it is now. It would add more depth and realism to the game, make people put thought in their breeding projects, and regulate a feature - stats - that only matters in PvP - which gets really difficult once you reach a level point, so there's that too. All in all, the effects would be pretty subtle, so I personally don't think it would drive anyone away. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:44:10 |
Personally I see a few issues with it. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:44:34 |
@Vanagandr Actually, lions in captivity are a problem when it comes to breeding because most are related. In the wild, unless a son allies or overthrows his own father, they are driven away, which makes them search for their own territory and woo their own females, unless they manage to overthrow another male. It can happen, and it happens, but it is really rare, and it doesn't get to the point it can get here. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Raamiah [rolls on Sundays] (#83061) Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:45:16 |
Ahh, okay! The best of luck with your suggestion, but the fact that all my stat projects would be undermined if this was implemented means that I will have to no support :( Heda makes a wonderful point about stacking, too! Sorry! 0 players like this post! Like? Edited on 02/04/17 @ 11:46:47 by Raamiah [side] #DreamTeam (#83061) |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:45:20 |
@Nicholas I'll try to read it later, when I'm not busy replying, but thank you, sounds really interesting! 0 players like this post! Like? |
Silence (#32324)
King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:45:53 |
Catella (#107916)
Dreamboat of Ladies View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:52:50 |
I support! I think, if it increased the chance of a lethal mutation, it would be a roll of the die: trading lower stats for a possibly rare mutation. It would be a fun mechanic to add to the game. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Scottie (Lights ON!) (#87211)
Evil View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:55:15 |
I support. It would add some realism. But as you said, it can be used to pass desirable traits, so maybe the bad effects kick in if say, three relatives are shared? 0 players like this post! Like? |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:57:58 |
@Heda RedBox I'll try for this to be short: 1. The lethal chance is meant to be rare here. Like, the chance of producing a mutated cub is the same, but within it, the chance of producing a lethal cub is increased. Which would increase it a little bit, but only just. 2. Stats need to be regulated, somehow. If you breed a high stated male to an NCL that has reached 1k stats, it'd mean you'd only have issues from the father's side. I know stat-breeding is really hard, time consuming, and expensive, but the issue is that those few on top don't have competition, thus they are capable of setting their prices without the fear of loosing clients because it is too high compared to the competition. Those who want to be on top pay them, until another is on top, and the circle goes on and on. This would break the circle, creating in the community the need to collaborate to avoid the negative effects. 3. As I've said before, you'd need to do a lot of inbreeding for it to become a problem. And there are lots of clans and thread dedicated to "adopting" new players, and lots of kind, veteran players who gift their cubs to new players. It doesn't have to be a problem. 4. The chance of miscarrying is small, even if you inbreed. So you have Keyser Soze on this lioness' Full Heritage 16 times - it would mean 16% chance of a cub being stillborn. It's not so high. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:00:43 |
@Scotty A three strike system? It could be doable, too. It'd be up to the staff really to decide the percentages and such, but it would be a good way of ensuring it doesn't harm the new and casual players - I don't see how it could harm them, it'd be real bad luck for a cub to be stillborn for breeding a son to his mother, right? 0 players like this post! Like? |
Gyrendolen (#106188)
Angelic View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:02:39 |
I'd like to argue for this suggestion for just a moment. LioDen isn't supposed to be an easy game. It's supposed to be realistic, yes? Think of the snub-nosed persian cat. That's a result of inbreeding. We shouldn't be able to get "perfect" lions so easily. And breeding projects won't be as impossible as people say; they'll be tougher, yes, but still possible. I'd also want to say one level of inbreeding probably wouldn't be bad, not without horrible luck. Say you breed father/daughter once. That probably would have no noticeable effects..maybe just slightly lower fertility than it would normally have based off the mother? But if you kept doing it, then you'd probably see the effects. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Anonymous (#44152)
Demonic View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:02:52 |
No support sorry for reasons already stated I like the game breeding the way it already is, and rather not have it change much more. 0 players like this post! Like? |