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| Posted by | Double Merle |
 thecloudkingdom (#87289) Phoenix View Forum Posts  Posted on 2017-04-14 15:47:09 |
I know merle is a marking for dogs and not lions, but Lioden hasn't always been true to life *cough* pink lions *cough*, so there's no reason that lions on Lioden can't have merle too! Now, Lioden doesn't have merle as a marking or a mutation, but I'm not suggesting merle as a mutation anyway. Rather, I'm suggesting double merle as a mutation!  (image is a link btw) Here you can see the difference between regular merles and double merles. Double merles have much more white spotting than regular merles. They're called double merles because they have Homozygous Dominant alleles of the merle gene, whereas regular merles have Heterozygous alleles for the merle gene (that's two active merle genes versus one active merle gene). This doubled gene makes many double merles both blind and deaf. Double merles have eye problems. Every double merle has sight and/or hearing problems because of its doubled gene. These eye problems have many forms, usually manifesting as a combination of problems. These problems include - micropthalmia (physically small eyeballs) - "starburst" pupils (irregular shaped pupils, edges of the pupil look "torn") - "dropped" pupil (pupil is physically lower than the center of the iris) - anopthalmia (no eyeball, empty socket looks pink and swollen) - blindness Double merle could either be its own mutation, or it could have a very slim chance of popping up in piebald/nonpied and/or pied/pied breedings. to be honest, i'd rather it be limited to pied/pied breedings for the sake of retaining the "double" part double merle, but that's just my opinion also, i'd rather it be nonlethal, but have the same debuffs as blind/eyeless lions (can't be kinged/sent to hunt). Double merles really only have problems with deafness and blindness for the most part  image by Ankokou #3124   examples of the merle pattern by Brighty #22310 suggestions: - red and blue double merles (2 mutations, like the multiple pied mutations) (Heda Redbox #56702) - mutation appears as a total overlay rather than a partial overlay (total overlay being like achromia and melanism, partial overlay being like piebald), shows as white with patches of merle and eye deformations (Ankokou #3124) - debuffs similar to the blind and eyeless mutations? |
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Peanut Jeans (BLM) (#107370)
Fearsome View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-14 15:49:56 |
I totally support! This seems like such a great idea! I'd love to see this in lions!   0 players like this post! Like? |
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Lamb's Side [Clean Pariah] (#71271) Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-14 15:52:11 |
I like it and maybe it would teach younger members not to breed double merles or dapples when they grow up if they breed. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/04/17 @ 22:52:34 by Lamb's Side (#71271) |
Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-14 15:58:28 |
I think for it to be a marking or mutation it would need a solid look (Or many set looks with names, such as how piebald is a look, but it has set looks like heavy and light). I see that one of the 'doubles' looks rather normal, but then the other two photos almost look achromatic. I'm wondering what trait would be shown so you know "Hey that's a double merle" (such as how dwarfs are small beans, Leopons are slim bean-poles, primals are hulking beasts). You listed a lot of things that they experience, so as a mutation would they be normal looking lion with eye problems like Starburst Pupils; Lion has torn lookin' irises | Drooped Pupils; Lion has droopy pupils | Anopthalmia; This lion is missing an eye. So the mutation would be called Double Merle, but then would have sub catagories. In this instance "Double Merle" would be attributed to "Piebald" and "Anopthalmia" would be attributed to "Heavy" (The piebald type was randomly chosen). I'm not sure if it should be left only to Piebalds, but it would make them very complex. Piebalds + Sub catagories + a chance for a mutation that also has sub catagories. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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thecloudkingdom (#87289)
Phoenix View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-14 16:11:29 |
most double merles have small patches of color that are a few inches big (like how an overcast sky still has patches of clear sky that you can see). the three shown in the pic i showed arent very good examples of this   and i'd rather simplify double merle to the average double merle traits, like the patches and the micropthalmia, than make it a big complicated set of mutations (unless the admins finally add search all mutations to the trading center lmao) you expressed some concern about how obvious the mutation looks, but most mutations on lioden don't look that obvious at birth. Foldies, piebald, and tail mutation lions dont look that much different from the base lineart, and theres so many adult mutations that arent noticable at birth. by tying the double merle gene to the very similar piebald gene, more users would be likely to find out they have double merle cubs because theyre likely to check if the pied gene passed onto the cubs. i don't think they need drastically different lineart, maybe a slight lineart adjustment to make their eyes more squinty 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-14 16:20:02 |
Oh no, you misunderstood. I mean how would it show as an adult. It wouldn't make sense to have a single mutation called "Double Merle" but then the adult versions come out like 7 different ways. What I'm concerned over is how you plan to express the mutation. All mutations have a specific factor that make them that mutation, I'm wondering what this one's would be. Is the double merle the white itself (as I see again a lot of them have achromatic features) which makes it looks a lot like piebald (In that case I would suggest just having a piebald that covers almost the entire lion (more so than heavy) and call it Piebald (Double Merle) and maybe make this type of piebald not able to hunt (To go with your eye issue thing) - Or is the double merle the splotches (So like piebald but black/ dark colors). You need a specific feature is all (especially if you don't want that complicated system). 1 player likes this post! Like?Edited on 14/04/17 @ 23:41:19 by Heda RedBox (#56702) |
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Brighty (Twilightstar) (#22310)
Sweetheart View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-14 16:49:24 |
Piebald and Merle are very similar mutations. Also, animals with the homozygous (double) merle/overo gene always die before or shortly after birth. You have pictures of albino and leucistic dogs, as far as I'm aware there are no documented cases of a double merle surviving more than a week after birth. In most cases, the mother's body automatically aborts double merle fetuses, and those who aren't aborted die shortly after birth due to internal malformations. The double merle gene is lethal. Double merle/LWS Although, it would make a nice lethal. 'True' albino animals more often than not have eyesight and hearing problems, which was not implemented on Lioden. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 15/04/17 @ 00:01:20 by Brighty (Twilightstar) (#22310) |
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thecloudkingdom (#87289)
Phoenix View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 01:10:39 |
@Brighty The double merle gene is not lethal. many people think that because it looks similar to the lethal white gene in horses. Double merle and albinism are similar but not the same. Here's a site about double merles that has more info about the confusion between the lethal white gene in horses and the double merle gene in dogs And animals with Homozygous Dominant don't always die. many pelt colors have healthy dominant and heterozygous alleles. Having a deadly Homozygous Dominant gene is actually rare in the cases of pelt colors and markings. Also I'm not sure where you meant to link me to, but your link sent me to someone's art forum post @Heda oh, thanks for the clarification. Double Merle is both the splotches of color and the white spotting. Regular merles have a "roan" look to them, as you can see quite well in the far left photo of blue merles in the original post. The Homozygous Dominant variant of the merle gene causes the white spotting and the merle together, as you can see on the two blue double merles that I showed in my response to your first comment. Merle only comes in red or blue, so that would narrow down the colors (and maybe give us two or three variants? ie red/blue/heavy?) also, many double merles have floppy ears (come to think of it, I've never found a picture of one with stiff ears), so maybe that could be used in a way? And they usually have very light blue eyes (though that's probably helped by the fact that many of the breeds that usually have merle also have at least one blue eye) 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 15/04/17 @ 08:12:24 by thecloudkingdom (#87289) |
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Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 07:12:50 |
Okay, okay. I think I'm grasping this better. So it would be a full base mutation as to where you cannot see the base (such as achromia and melanism). It would basically be Achromia but with the addition of color splashes (that can only be two colors) & also maybe floppy ears (You have to remember that this seems to be a dog mutation, and were applying it to lions, so I'm not sure if the floppy ears would apply). 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Ankokou (#3124)
Merciful View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 07:28:13 |
I think the best way to differentiate this mutation from piebald and achromia is to actually have the mutation show some of the common eye defects these animals have. Not only would it make it more unique but having strange eyes may help dissuade people from trying to breed this as "poor mans piebald." Like this: Just an example, the eyes could be even smaller or missing. Also it keeps the mutation simple, as it wouldn't need it's own base and be easier to make and add. It's just an overlay image like Heda said (though I didn't take the time to make the colored merle parts look very good in my example, it was mainly to show off the eye thing.) As for the ears, looking at pictures most of the breeds affected seem to have flop ears anyway. Like border collies, their ears are all over the place regardless. The danes I see have uncropped ears, normal colored danes have floppy ears too unless they've been mutilated for cosmetic reasons. Double merle corgies still have erect ears. I can't really find any evidence in reading or looking this has an effect on ear cartilage. 1 player likes this post! Like?Edited on 15/04/17 @ 14:29:48 by Ankokou (#3124) |
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thecloudkingdom (#87289)
Phoenix View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 07:38:41 |
Ankokou thanks for the example photo! the ear thing was just spitballing, i know the breeds that usually have merle have soft ears (i myself have a natural eared dane), i just haven't seen any photos of breeds with erect ears having double merle so i wasn't sure. (also can i use your image in the main post? i love the way you drew the eye) as for Heda, we do actually have bad eyesight in Lioden in the form of the Blind mutation, which is part of what inspired me to suggest that in this mutation. if the mutation has physical impairments on the eye itself (which double merle certainly does) then in my opinion there shouldn't be an issue with coding it to have the same effects as Blindness. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 07:43:19 |
I'm aware we have an impairment from blindness, but this is because the lion is literally blind. Brightstar pointed out that while Achromatics have eye trouble, we do not factor this into the game, which is why they are suggesting that this would not be factored in either. Overall I do approve of this suggestion, I think it would neat despite it straying very close to being a piebald (especially in Ankokou's edit, which is lovely by the way). I think what you need to layout very clearly is the determining factors. Ankokou's has laid that out pretty well. It's the white of piebald + those eyes. (If you want to make it an eye mutation I would state so. If it was an eye mutation it could account for lions not being able to see.) 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Ankokou (#3124)
Merciful View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 07:46:04 |
@thecloudkingdom Thank you, feel free to use it for whatever. I was sorta hoping the ear thing was real myself, from an art perspective understand; these poor dogs have enough problems as is, but it didn't hold up once I started looking into it. That would have been neat as an addition to this mutation. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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thecloudkingdom (#87289)
Phoenix View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 07:47:58 |
Heda, double merle effects both the eyes and the pelt. Like how Ankokou said the eyes should look different to make it more than a "poor man's piebald", having them have the same debuffs as a blind/eyeless lion would add to that. Achromia lions in Lioden dont have blindness debuffs because many achromatic animals can actually see, though have strong light sensitivity. that's different from the eye and pupil malformations of double merles 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 07:54:24 |
(Achromia would probably affect hunting, since you send your lionesses out any time of day in this game) Anyway. If you got with Ankokou's version of a 'poor man's piebald' would you have it in different degrees? Light, heavy, etc. Or would it be a single type to keep things simple, just curious. o3o 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Brighty (Twilightstar) (#22310)
Sweetheart View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-15 09:21:15 |
Ah my apologies! I thought it was the same in all animals as it is in horses. My famiy had a lethal white foal born a few years ago, so sad. I think, to differ it from the piebald gene you should include the coloured ticking Blue merle Red merle Chocolate merle Lilace merle 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 15/04/17 @ 16:43:32 by Brighty (Twilightstar) (#22310) |
