Posted by Double Merle

thecloudkingdom (#87289)

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Posted on
2017-04-14 15:47:09
I know merle is a marking for dogs and not lions, but Lioden hasn't always been true to life *cough* pink lions *cough*, so there's no reason that lions on Lioden can't have merle too!

Now, Lioden doesn't have merle as a marking or a mutation, but I'm not suggesting merle as a mutation anyway. Rather, I'm suggesting double merle as a mutation!

merles2.jpg

(image is a link btw) Here you can see the difference between regular merles and double merles. Double merles have much more white spotting than regular merles. They're called double merles because they have Homozygous Dominant alleles of the merle gene, whereas regular merles have Heterozygous alleles for the merle gene (that's two active merle genes versus one active merle gene). This doubled gene makes many double merles both blind and deaf.

Double merles have eye problems. Every double merle has sight and/or hearing problems because of its doubled gene. These eye problems have many forms, usually manifesting as a combination of problems. These problems include
- micropthalmia (physically small eyeballs)
- "starburst" pupils (irregular shaped pupils, edges of the pupil look "torn")
- "dropped" pupil (pupil is physically lower than the center of the iris)
- anopthalmia (no eyeball, empty socket looks pink and swollen)
- blindness

Double merle could either be its own mutation, or it could have a very slim chance of popping up in piebald/nonpied and/or pied/pied breedings. to be honest, i'd rather it be limited to pied/pied breedings for the sake of retaining the "double" part double merle, but that's just my opinion

also, i'd rather it be nonlethal, but have the same debuffs as blind/eyeless lions (can't be kinged/sent to hunt). Double merles really only have problems with deafness and blindness for the most part

DoubleMerle.png
image by Ankokou #3124

JwutWXk.pngYSeXNfb.png
examples of the merle pattern by Brighty #22310

suggestions:
- red and blue double merles (2 mutations, like the multiple pied mutations) (Heda Redbox #56702)
- mutation appears as a total overlay rather than a partial overlay (total overlay being like achromia and melanism, partial overlay being like piebald), shows as white with patches of merle and eye deformations (Ankokou #3124)
- debuffs similar to the blind and eyeless mutations?



This suggestion has 258 supports and 22 NO supports.



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Edited on 16/04/17 @ 09:18:10 by thecloudkingdom (#87289)

Heda Vampiric (#56702)

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Posted on
2017-04-15 09:44:10

Brighty, the link you are giving disproves your claim that it would be lethal.

Quotes from your linked site:

"The puppies do not die shortly after birth, like the Lethal White foals do. While they may have vision and hearing problems (or may not), they are otherwise healthy and capable of growing and developing normally."

"The genetically correct term for these dogs is "homozygous merle," which simply means the dog carries 2 copies of the merle gene."

"[How this term may be harmful...] It's inaccurate (as stated above)."


Edit: Saw you noticed the mistake and changed your post.




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Edited on 15/04/17 @ 16:45:20 by Heda RedBox (#56702)

Brighty
(Twilightstar) (#22310)

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Posted on
2017-04-15 09:47:43
I'm aware of that Heda. I've amended my comment and my support.
I misunderstood the webpage

I saw that it was called 'lethal' because the pups are often euthanized after birth, not because they die due o the gene



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Edited on 15/04/17 @ 16:48:59 by Brighty (Twilightstar) (#22310)

Brighty
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Posted on
2017-04-15 11:02:05
Ooops I did a thing

nriMUA3.pngJwutWXk.pngxzszo8Z.pngL8CAuTH.pngYSeXNfb.png



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thecloudkingdom (#87289)

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Posted on
2017-04-15 16:11:07
heda it would probably just look similar to heavy piebald but with less tiny flecks of white. Double merles have much smoother edges that piebald but still have a lot of white, so it'd be more accurate to the gene if it looked more like Ankokou's version (with the merle patches of course)



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thecloudkingdom (#87289)

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Posted on
2017-04-15 16:12:22
brighty those look awesome! can i add them to the post?



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Brighty
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Posted on
2017-04-15 18:08:10
Of course!
I amended my comments and support status once I realized my mistake :)



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Whale Biologist πŸ‹ (#35355)

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Posted on
2017-04-22 05:08:29

No support, personally. Merle only occurs in dogs. And I know, Lioden isn't exactly realistic. But on top of that, it takes two merle genes to create this (obviously). Merle is dominant, so the parents would have to both show it. I think you'd have to manipulate the reality of the mutation too much to implement it, or make a whole slew of inheritable merle markings/mutations.




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Brighty
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Posted on
2017-04-22 10:32:02
Merle occurs in lots of other animals, its just given different names.



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Whale Biologist πŸ‹ (#35355)

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Posted on
2017-04-22 10:39:02

So far I've only seen examples of dogs. I can't find any other species by searching for merle, and I wouldn't know what else to search for to find them. So examples would be much appreciated.




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thecloudkingdom (#87289)

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Posted on
2017-04-22 10:42:46
Nyu, like Brighty said it usually has different names. Roan is a good example, which occurs in horses. Merle and Roan are both forms of ticking, which basically colors the tips of hairs with color (white in the case of roan and merle, but other colors can occur such as black, which is known as smoking/smoke)



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Brighty
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Posted on
2017-04-22 10:44:42
In horses its called roan, in cats its called mottle/dapple, in pigeons its called checker pattern



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Edited on 22/04/17 @ 17:45:21 by Brighty (Twilightstar) (#22310)

Whale Biologist πŸ‹ (#35355)

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Posted on
2017-04-22 10:59:01

I'm no expert in horses, but that appears to be a totally different gene. From what I've read, homozygous roan isn't any different than heterozygous roan. Roan is more similar to agouti in cats than it is to merle. (I believe, I need to brush up a bit on cat genetics)

In cats, it's called parti color, if that's what you mean. That's just two regular colors mixing because they are sex-linked. There is no homozygous parti color, I believe it is caused by co dominance.

I'm not sure about pigeons, either, but I find no evidence of it relating to this. On top of that, I doubt a mammal would have a similar coat gene to a bird.




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Edited on 22/04/17 @ 18:02:12 by β„•yu➳ [Cool Patrol] (#35355)

thecloudkingdom (#87289)

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Posted on
2017-04-22 11:11:35
considering lioden already has roan markings, i don't think that species matters too much in this discussion



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Brighty
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Posted on
2017-04-22 11:13:32
Also, vitiligo is a mutation in real life NOT a marking, so I don't think merle on lions matters that much



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Heda Vampiric (#56702)

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Posted on
2017-04-22 12:29:15

Based on what Nyu has said and your replies of mentioning that Roan and Vit are markings instead of mutations, what if Merle was made into a marking as well, not a mutation.




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Edited on 23/04/17 @ 14:23:49 by Heda RedBox (#56702)







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