Posted by "Neotenous"/"insular dwarfism"

๐Ÿฅ€ (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-07 17:13:17
There are so many ugly and some very disturbing suggestions here... so I thought of why not a cute pleasing to the eyes "mutation"!
~~~

petite_lionboy_by_bekiss-dcgl92n.png
petite_lionbae2_by_bekiss-dcgozgl.png
petite_lioness_by_bekiss-dcgoqiu.png
petite_lionessby_by_bekiss-dcgp1wc.png
(scroll downer for other mock-up sketches)

*changed name to โ€œneotenousโ€ (used to be called "petite")
other name: "insular dwarfism"



Itโ€™s a smaller lion (and cuter)
-Maybe the size of a leopard or cheetah?
lion_cheetah_size_by_bekiss-dcgkxwc.png
-It would be healthy and breed-able. Can be Kinged.
-Inheritable? Can be passed down by both mother and father. ?
-It will be for all age stages. Doesn't need to have different artwork for newborn and young cub, 'cause those are already small (that artwork could be resized smaller, if needed).

The effect it could have in game-play could be:
- That it has less chance when catching big preys (on its one it cannot), but more likely to catch small preys.
- It is harder to breed, more chance to fail breeding, and if bred with Primal there's a 50 chance of cub mortality even with nesting (Primals are huge). *But if this coding is too much trouble then just make them not able to breed with Primals and 25-50% chance of failing breeding for "small" male studs with any non-"small", (females already have a fertility %).
- Shorter gestation periods and sexually mature faster. (took that from wikipedia.) *could be hard to code, so ignore it?
- Stat penalty.

~~~~

mutation_tag2_by_bekiss-dcgl0r7.png

Neoteny: "Some common neotenous physical traits in domesticated animals (mainly dogs, pigs, ferrets, cats, and even foxes) include: floppy ears, changes in reproductive cycle, curly tails, piebald coloration, fewer or shortened vertebra, large eyes, rounded forehead, large ears, and shortened muzzle."(from wikipedia) Neoteny is very common in humans!

This suggestion only refers to mammalian neoteny, and neoteny does not affect every physical traits in all cases:
neoteny = the retention of some juvenile characteristics in adulthood

So in theory, these lions can have normal full manes.

The neotenous lion doesn't need to have shorter gestations and mature sexually faster.

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Insular dwarfism
the "pygmy elephant" is a good example click and info: click

In looks It's not identical to the "dwarfism" mutation here, because the body is proportionate, limbs will be average or slightly shorter but not really noticeable. (Made edit pics to show that. above.)
This type can be healthy and have a life span similar to their bigger relatives (both the pygmy elephants and asian-african elephants can live up to 70 years, and the pygmy sexually matures faster:10yrs. vs14yrs)


*Got another idea: what if you can get this mutation when breeding with dwarfs?
(edit: Not, 'cause insular dwarfism is completely different from that type of dwarfism that actually deforms the body proportions. and insular dwarfism is evolution/species adapting to an environment.)
petite_lionboy_with_dwarf_by_bekiss-dcgla5l.png

Lioden includes Madagascar? (click) so pygmy lions can be a thing here...?

~~~~

I'm not suggesting amphibian's paedomorphosis (or for this "mutation" to be called Paedomorphosis.) Axolotl are pedomorphic species, but they are not described with the word neoteny (click)

Info! :D (from encyclopedia britannica)
Paedomorphosis: "retention by an organism of juvenile or even larval traits into later life. There are two aspects of paedomorphosis: acceleration of sexual maturation relative to the rest of development (progenesis) and retardation of bodily development with respect to the onset of reproductive activity (neoteny).

Classic examples include certain amphibian species in which development is arrested so that the larval form and aquatic habit persist as the organism attains sexual maturity and becomes capable of reproduction. In some species only a few morphological features are retarded, but the number of features retarded may differ from species to species. Adult humans, for example, display various neotenic body features that other adult primates do not.
In other species all morphological development is retarded; the organism is juvenilized but sexually mature. Such shifts of reproductive capability would appear to have adaptive significance to organisms that exhibit it. In terms of evolutionary theory, the process of paedomorphosis suggests that larval stages and developmental phases of existing organisms may give rise, under certain circumstances, to wholly new organisms."

Source: (click)

~~~~~

It seems, the difference between neoteny and insular dwarfism, (of mammals), is that:
neoteny usually is that juvenile-like traits are being selected for/ passed down) and insular dwarfism happens in isolated groups.

Both seem to be gradual mutations/evolution. both natural and artificial selection pass down the traits of juvenile appearance and smaller size. but in some cases retention of juvenile appearance can be sudden..?

In both, it shouldn't really affect the mane growth, since these animals sexually mature, manes are sexual characteristic, example:
insular dwarfish= pygmy elephants have tusks; and neoteny= human have beards and body-hair (scarce beards/bodyhair is seen in asians, but many do have full long beards).
Mane size and fullness is dependent on its own genes and on hormones mostly.

Lets imagine its a barbary-mane pygmy/neotenous lion? xD

~~~~~

On how to obtains these small lions:
If it's not considered a random mutation maybe this could be the scenarios:
- Your lion bred with a mystery pygmy/neotenous lion and got an offspring. like with the hybrids(Leopons).
- A Rapid evolution like the Primals are (they are rapid-devolution?). Mutie on Demand?
- *You encounter a pygmy/neotenous lioness in explore and claim like the NCLs. Could be during an event only, like the groupies? Or a Raffle lioness. (in this case it will be a special "mutie" only obtained like these?)

*Mutations in these game are not always true mutations, hybrids and ancestrals(evolving back) are called mutations here. Not every "mutation" needs to be super realistic.

~~~~~

fTfwtKs.png
Maybe could be the ofspring of that? ๐Ÿ˜‚ (t'is a joke)

~~~~~~~

Letโ€™s make Lioden Cute! (some balance is needed, its too gory and gruesome)

(It would be awesome it could be bought at some time like a Mutie on Demand item)



This suggestion has 1428 supports and 221 NO supports.



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Edited on 20/07/18 @ 13:01:19 by Zizi ๐Ÿฅ€ (#12402)

Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:08:17
Aconitira
i don't think Melanism has ever happened in lions, other big cats yes, and idk about some of the lethal mutations happening in lions also. And not to mention there's plans for dwarf variations, so why not have this?



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DEAD ACCOUNT (#128748)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:14:32
true, while melanism has never happened in lions in does occur naturally in other big cats close to the gene pool of lions, take jaguars and leopards for example. even being confirmed by zooologists and geneticists to be theoretically possible.

this however to my knowledge has no founding in reality with no close links of the lion or any other big cat developing โ€œpetiteโ€ or โ€œneotenyโ€ type mutations. this is much like if someone suggested a human grow a lions mane or four useable arms. it simply isnโ€™t a realistic mutation in any sense.

(edited for extra info)



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 15:20:12 by Aererio (#128748)

Aconitira #B@H ๐Ÿ’™ (#102117)

Maneater
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:15:40
^^^^^ yes exactly thank you aererio you worded that better than I wouldve :)



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ADDAKAX (#14463)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:22:51
@ Phantom StarsX
Melanism may not have happened in lions (and let's be real, neither has achromia), but it's still something that can happen in at least other animals of the panthera family, which at least allows for a moderate and tbh acceptable sense of realism - not to mention, the next closest thing, called "Mosaicism"/"Partial Melanism" is possible in lions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESb0PytIQn8

As you can see, the lion in the video is abnormally dark.

As for lethal mutations, these are mostly refered to genetic errors that alter body parts or actions that have little or nothing to do with pelt color. These can happen in anything that has a genetic code, if we're honest.

Concerning the dwarf variations, the one that I'm aware of being planned so far is primal. Primal is a type of mutation that alters the looks of a lion based on the looks of lions/felines of old. As it is possible with anything, lions of old could have endured dwarfism as easily as they can do now.




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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:27:43
The planned variations for dwarf is primordial, I've seen the sketches it actually kinda keeps the lion looking and around the size of a cub... so why not a teenish lion dwarf variation, or a mutation in its own right..?

Also piebald don't happen in lions either.



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 15:30:59 by Phantom StarsX (#92256)

DEAD ACCOUNT (#128748)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:29:50
well, find a mutation in big cats that is similar to it then link it. case closed

enough hypotheticals already



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Aconitira #B@H ๐Ÿ’™ (#102117)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:30:49
Dwarfism that's the mutation that's like this...



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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:31:09
I'm saying the opposite, alot of these mutations, existing and planned don't happen in real lions... so how is that an issue?



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:34:21
But they happen in real life to lots of animals other than humans.
Neotenous is different than dwarfism, and it certainly isn't cute.
Petite isn't a mutation either, and a tall dwarf isn't a dwarf at all... it would just be averaged sized.



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Aconitira #B@H ๐Ÿ’™ (#102117)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:37:26
@phantom And all the mutations you've listed off have occured in the panther genus so it's entirely possible is been in lions just not documented



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 15:39:53 by Aconitira #B@H ๐Ÿ’™ (#102117)

Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:38:05
Name of the mutation aside, I think the idea kinda a nice happy medium and there are other mutations, heck even health defects that can cause growth to be stunted. And no petite or being small itself isn't exactly a mutation, but the base lions are all one size. Lioden isn't going to be expected to suddenly make a ton of varying sizes but as mutations in the game do have different line arts and sizes, hence why this is probably being suggested as a mutation.



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:43:03
Well there isn't huge size differences in normal lions. Both are around 3ft, with males being slightly taller than females. Some may be bigger or smaller, but it's not even noticeable. It's there's a huge difference, then it's considered a dwarf.
Growth delay can be caused by genetics, hormones, or lack of nutrition, which means the lion would have to be unhealthy.



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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:50:19
Dwarfism doesn't exactly come in all sizes though. We're getting primordial, which is smaller then small, so why not something closer to the size of the adolescent lions since we're getting cubs and we have the lion equivalent of the munchkin cat breed? (short legs, longer body, head proportion)

And again, as people have pointed out, some of the mutations are possible in other big cats but not lions so those are ok, but size variation isn't common in lions averaging around 3 feet so this shouldn't be a mutation in the game.... I'm started to get confused by the logic here. Piebald, melanism, folded ears, and several other mutations don't exist in lions, alot of these mutations are from house cats which vary greatly in size without being dwarf... so what's the problem now?



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 16:01:20 by Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 15:57:08
I don't hate the idea of a dwarf variant, but the way how it is supposed to be cute and healthy just isn't right with me.
I really life the idea of Insular Dwarfism, cause it's the same as Island Dwarfism and we could have some weird storyline with a lion pride in Madagascar or somethin (Our boi Alex from Madagascar livin with the Fossas).

And @Phantom, there's a height limit of dwarfism. In humans, it's under 4'11. The dwarfs in Lioden now are most likely the size they would be in real life.
And Munchkins were bred down and down, they didn't come like that naturally. If we took the first Munchkin and compared it to an average house cat, it would be like comparing the dwarfs and normal lions in Lioden.



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Spectre [CLEAN
Pastel Festive] (#8762)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:01:05
Support, most of the arguments against it apply to pretty much any upcoming mutation/pose.

A pose is useless and adds to art load just as this would, and there are some mutations that are actually functionally useless in mechanics. To me, they're not just "smaller lions" they actually retain different features that would distinguish them from the normal lions. I never saw this reaction to something like a suggested primal variation and there are already plans to have variations (more than one) for dwarfism so I'm not seeing how this is any different than Felis, Smilus, or Fatalis (upcoming variation xy spoiled)?



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