@edaria and Seiden:
The flaw in your logic is that the submale is not the co-leader. He is the heir. He is not leading. He is the future king who will get to breed eventually. Why would he risk the wrath of the king of possibly being basically mauled to death or losing his submale status to just breed once when he gets to breed eventually with all the females as king?

Again. The submale slot was only introduced to make retiring easier. The submale was never meant to be a sub-leader, sub-king or anything else but a heir, the future king who you have the chance to train.

A lot of people have this misconception and this is where most complaints come from. You have to understand that the submale is not a part of a coalition. He is the heir. has no right to breed.

Besides, if you want to get 'something else' from the usual markings/coats your king produces, there are thousand and one ways to do that without needing to enable submale breeding.
Example:
1. Wait with breeding until your main male can be retired and breed with your submale once he is king. There ya go new cubs.
2. Change some of the markings/coat color on your male or females to get new stuff in cubs
3. Completely recustomize your male to get absolutely new design for cubs.
4. Retire your main male early to breed with the new king
5. Seek the services of studs. You choose what combination of colors and markings you want and there is an endless supply and variation available.
6. Instead of breeding, buy cubs to get fresh markings and coat colors within your pride.
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IF this was implemented in its current way, despite its small chance, it is going to be abused every day, especially when people can have multiple submales, so they can try with them too.

What I would suggest is not only to have a small chance for it to succeed, but also a higher chance for negative effects in order to make sure that not everyone uses it and that it wont be abused in a daily manner.

Eg.:
So, you say that the chance of succeeding would be small, which -let us say would be- 5%.
So there would be a 95% chance of the submale getting caught trying to woo the female by your main male.
Let us give negative effect to hold back abuse of this feature.

50% chance of your main male mauling the submale severely, where the submale receives heavy wounds and so cannot patrol for 5 hours/ the whole day. (completely ignores stats)

25% chance for the main male making sure that submale cannot try breeding with the female again for the rest of her life-until he is king-/for this heat.

20% chance that the main male gets so angry that he not only beats the submale but also chases him out to never come back. (you cannot reclaim the submale again)

So best be sure that you take these into consideration before trying. Do you want the small chance to breed, or do you want the higher chance of having no submale anymore or having to lose a day of patrolling. Your choice.

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I have a lot of things to say in defence of the idea (not necessarly the proposed implementation, because I think maybe there needs to be some modifications), but I but I have a feeling that more people would be happy if the site took a different direction? I have two other ideas that I'd kinda like to put out there

1. Making submales available for studding, but unable to breed with lionesses in your own den.
-I sees pros and cons with this. It introduces a thematic questions: why would the main male allow the subs to breed at all? but it solves a more specific thematic problem: Why would the main male allow subs to breed with HIS females?

- People get the satisfaction of breeding their pretty males and earning more income from them. Which I think has been currently unvalued in this discussion, it's clear that a lot of breeders WANT to be able to breed their submales! They don't want all those genes to go to waste! They have a variety of ideas and breeding projects and they want to do them all at once! They're enthusiastic to play the game and it's a little sad and frustrating that they have these males that they've invested time and resources into and are unable to breed them mechanically. (Yes Axel, you can wait until they take over. But it takes a long time and it's unfeasible because some of your subs will undoubtedly die before they get their chance to be stud. And people who don't have a lot of GB can't retire early. So they're committed to a long time with a male that they might get bored of or are unsatisfied with. And I don't think that that's a bad thing, I like the difficult it presents, but I think that the cost for retiring your male early is currently a little too steep to make it a desirable option.)

- Of coarse players would trade submales a lot to breed them to their own lions. But I don't really see how this would be any different than reverse studding. People have ways to get around the current breeding system already.

-limitations could always be introduced for submales. Things like fewer stud slots, lesser rater of stat inheritance, and smaller litter sizes (Thematic element: Main males kill cubs that aren't theirs.)

- One pro is that this seems the easiest for the developers to implement. The skeleton is already there for the studding system. It would just have to be modified a bit to extend to submales and have new clauses added to make sure submales aren't breeding within your own den.


2. Implementing a fight for dominance system within each players den
- I like this idea the best and I liked it so much I made a thread for it x.x Because it's really quite long, but I actually think it has a chance to work
LINK HERE

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Poppi, we need to make it hard! And getting people to buy GB puts money into the game, which keeps the game going. Also, Axel, your ideas of the consequences are excellent! With those consequences, I'm sure this will work! Perhaps, when the sub male is beaten, he cannot patrol until one buys a herb from monkey business to heal him, which would cost around 60 SB?

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Not supported, since the admins said a very clear NO to this.

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Even though many have said they will never add the option for the sub male. Doesnt mean i dont like the ideas. I specially like Tiaret (#27435) idea.

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No support. I agree with Axel's reasons.

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o.o i just want to be able to have a prune along with my onyx an celestial <,< A prune male would most stunning to breed.

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I think thematically this could be very interesting, and there are definitely other ways to limit this (only being able to breed a submale to a lioness when your king is at 0 energy being one thing that comes to mind.) Everyone is saying that its not realistic because they're not coleaders, but the original idea isn't the king allowing it, its sneaky. And honestly I support the idea only because it fits my backstory.

TL;DR, support.

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No support, I like the game being a SIM, and therefore see no reason for submales to breed, if you want to breed that lion so badly SEX CHANGE IT it's 1 gb, and you have like 2 weeks to do so,
Plus as I said I don't like people viewing the game as a "breeding" game and I feel like allowing sub's to breed no matter how low the chances) would just make it worse,

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^^ Sex change can only be given to Cubs, when you're male is already a sub-male you won't be able to change it's gender.

I do actually support, but I was wondering when your male could get caught.

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I support this. It won't happen but I think it should.

The stat gap is probably too big to do anything about, even with cub chasers and the like trying their best. The cub market is already bad so I'm not sure anything can be done to fix that either.

Also if this cost sb then it might help the economy by slightly increasing the value of sb.

What if when the sub male was successful, your king loses a few % (let's say 5%) of its impression progress. Then when he stops the sub male from breeding he gains some impression progress. Just an idea.

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No support. The staff said multiple times sub males WILL NOT be breedable and I don't think any amount of suggestions will change their minds.

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@Mightyena, if you had pretty much everyone on the site saying they wanted submale breeding, it wouldn't make sense to say no still. Yes the mods have said no thus far, but its not realistic to deny people what they want when you're depending on them to keep this game alive.

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It's also not realistic to post the same idea over and over again expecting different results. Thats the definition of insanity c:

At least that's my logic for it[not trying to be rude >.<]
It was declined, multiple times clearly by the developers for valid reasons. If a Sub-Male breeds in your pride, you now have two breeding males. If you have more than one, now you have multiple males breeding within a pride.
~In realistic terms, this doesn't make sense for co-leaders or co-breeding. Your heir is your heir he is not creating a coalition, so it should not be considered valid, at least in my opinion.
~In the game sense, two breeding males means twice the cubs if not more. Even if it's just in your pride now you have cubs from that male, and your male. More cubs you might not sell. If they can stud only outside the pride, then users get frustrated at not being able to breed their pretty subs or just use side accounts and have cubs that potentially won't sell.

In shorter terms, I just think 'dreary' main males should either pay the fee and retire or wait it out like everyone else has c:

It really isn't like you are forced to only breed your main male. Even without side account, there are 30,000 odd users with attractive main males who stud out if you want more color.

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Very true cat. But if people chased more cubs this wouldn't be such an issue.

The issue i am having is we can have only two accounts. Now i like more then just the Celestial an Onxy base. I like prune ...Prune is one of my most favorite base colors around. But I have a celestail an a Onyx base for my side. I do not want to change them. I want them to stay the same. An the game states i can not have more then two accounts. This is my problem, yes I can have a prune female an i do. But i want a beautiful studly prune male. So please tell me how can do that when i have my main the way i want it an the side account the way i want it. Hmm? I cant with out replacing either one of my main or my side accounts male. An I don't want to.

Is there a way to fix this issue? Why yes being able to have a sub male to breed. Who said i wanted to do it all the time. I just want the option. Its like when you go hunting, do you only take your rifle.... well i sure don't. I take a back up pistol an perhaps a knife. I like having options. The less options I have the less likely I enjoy the game.

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