Posted by Fight For Leadership! [Mechanic Suggestion]

Tiaret (#27435)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 06:03:04
Alright so I've recently been reading up on some of the ideas that other people have for being able to breed your submales. There seems to be A LOT of people who want to be able to breed their submales, but also a lot of concerns with how this would work, and what it would do to stat creep and the cub market.

Personally, I love having a diverse gene pool to breed from, and would love to be able to breed my submales. But I agree with everyone else, there are a lot of things that could go wrong if this was allowed, and I don't think it's reasonable or wise to ask for multiple studs breeding at the same time in the same lair. So I tried to create an idea that would satisfy all sides of the argument while still staying true to what (I think?) the developers want for the game, as well as Liodens theme as a Lion simulation game. So here's my idea, I will try to be concise:

Fight For Leadership Mechanic Implementation

- Mechanic: Players will be able to switch Main Males with one of their subs
- Theme/Flavor: Pride politics are a complex thing, and your male lions are competition for leadership of the Pride!
- How it would all work: Players will have the option to simulate challenge for leadership of their den. If they want to replace their main male with a sub, they can have that sub issue a challenge to the main male. An NPC style battle will take place. If the submale is successful, It becomes the new stud of the pride and the old stud becomes a (very much disgraced) submale. If the sub was unsuccessful, it remains a sub.
- Precautions to balance the difficulty of the mechanic: Fights would be on a one week cooldown. After a lion has earned leadership, it can not be challenged by another male for seven days (Flavor: it has struck fear in the hearts of the pride's males!). If a lion is unsuccessful in it's challenge, it can not challenge again for seven days (Flavor: It must have time to lick it's emotional and physical wounds!). Main Males will suffer an energy decrease each battle. Subs will suffer hunger increase.
- Bonus features: chances to earn scar decors, main males or winners earn experience from the battles

How It would satisfy different Lioden Players:

1. ROLEPLAYERS - They want to have deep den stories and struggles for power within their den. This mechanic has a ton of flavour and opportunity for roleplayers who love to mimic their stories as closely as possible!
2. MARKING BREEDERS - Want a more diverse gene pool to breed from, and a lot of them want to avoid inbreeding. They also have a ton of ideas for cubs that are limited by having only one male to choose from in their den. This gives more meaning to their breeding projects, a wider range of genetics to choose from, the chance to enjoy breeding for vastly different looks, and more value to the male cubs they breed. They also get to be more careful about planning their breeding schedule.
3. STAT BREEDERS, this gives people who loves stats another reason to breed for them and opens up the market for their cubs even more! Especially if the battles that take place are stat based, and earn experience. This is another way to help train your lions and increase their stats.
4. THE MARKET would be diversified by more cubs. It also doesn't have the same issue as having all your subs able to breed at once (Cubs overflowing the market, because with this option, you still only have one stud at once). I predict that it would also INCREASE the value of male cubs, bringing them closer to female cubs in value. People would have a good reason to want nice submales.
5. THEMATICALLY it is congruent with Lioden's lore, and that is awesome!! It adds another layer of gratifying realism to the game, while satisfying the different needs of gamers with varying playstyles.


It sounds like a great idea to me, to be honest. But I'll admit there are probably things that I have not thought of! Please let me know your concerns, I'd love to hear them an discuss with you! Either why or why not you would be interested in this mechanic, or changes that you think might need to be made to it.


EDIT:

Proposed changes
Thematic: Fights for dominance of a pride are an act of ceremony as much as usurption. Defy tradition and you run the risk of losing the Pride’s good opinion. Presenting the dominant male with golden beetles signals your intent to challenge.
Mechanically: Challenges cost 2 Golden Beetles! I still believe that a 7 day cool down would be the best for this price.
Rationale: I’ve chosen 2 golden beetles, which is relatively low, but considering that there is a chance for the sub male to fail, I believe a higher price would leave a very bad taste in players mouths. New mechanics should make gameplay more enjoyable, not less.
So because I wanted a low price, I still think a shorter cool down would be best. Since you are all right, people would pay the 10GB to retire their male much less often. But I think a LOT MORE people would be willing to spend 2GB every 7 days. Possibly even amounting to greater site-wide total GB spending than main male retiring would. I think it is a lot easier (from a psychological standpoint) for customers to spend a smaller amount of GB more frequently than it is to spend a LARGE sum all at once.

My argument is hinging on an assumption that I’m not sure is true or not: That the early retirement fee is one of the sites most often purchased Gold Beetle features, or at least is roughly equal to purchases of other items.



This suggestion has 91 supports and 1 NO support.



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Edited on 13/06/14 by Tiaret (#27435)

Cheeky (#7812)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 06:05:07
No support. If you want to change your male, you have to wait till he is 15+ or pay 10GB.
If this was implemented, there would be no point in retiring.



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Tiaret (#27435)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 06:08:48
@Sherrie, I respectfully disagree. Retiring is a great way to honor the males you have had that you worked hard on and loved, but that you no longer want to use. Eventually, people are still going to want to phase out older males that they no longer want, and they aren't just going to want to chase them. They're going to want them in their dynasty to show off and remember.



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Graciegra (#3127)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 06:15:40
No support



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Echo (#31746)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 08:45:51
Support, I like the idea. ^^



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the Scy (#18822)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 12:05:11
I would absolutely LOVE being able to switch my males at will. I Have a gorgeous stud and an equally gorgeous sub, but why have more than one sub male sitting in my den occupying space for lionesses and taking up their share of food every day, a resource that is difficult to keep plentiful. The naysayers won't be swayed no matter what we do but if enough players demand the option then eventually it WILL have an effect.

Total respect to the mods but the members are the lifeblood of the site and if they want to keep us, and the money we dump into this site for the sake of having digital lions (which I still don't understand but admit I am equally guilty of), then they will listen to us. So, yes, I support this idea. It's well rounded and caters to every side of the argument.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 18:37:51
I am sorry, but no matter what is changed, I cannot give my support.

I have already listed you all the ways you can bring fresh blood into your pride without needing to give breeding abilities to your submale.

So, along with what I wrote to the other thread, I will also list you all that is wrong with this idea:
1. NPC fights are random. There is no set % chance, no level, no stat will affect who the winner is. It is pretty much just a lucky draw. I dont think the developers would like that if you could 'raffle' the early replacement of your kings instead of paying the 10GB.
2. In the future NPC battles will depend on stats/levels/ a new system, which means that if you have a higher statted submale, it will 100% win. That is no fight for leadership. That is a free replacement in the future.
3. This would give you the chance to replace males every 7 days for free...

So no support. Submale breeding was officially declined by the developers themselves in the public meeting due to the problems it can cause. And I highly doubt that they would take away the 10GB early retirement fee. It means an income to their site.

Pay money, or wait patiently, or stud, or buy new cubs, or re-customize your male to refresh blood.

The way you can truly honor your main male if you loved him so much is that you let him be king all his life and die as a true king he is. if you put him as the submale again, it means you didnt honor him and he was reduced to a mere second. So 'love for main male and honoring him' is not quite a good excuse.



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Edited on 11/06/14 by Axel [B.A.M.F.] (#6627)

Tufty (#29680)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 19:25:34
Perhaps this would work if one had to pay 5 GB to do it, and could only do it if the submale was between age 4 and 10, older then 10 making the sub male to old to fight and younger then 4 making the sub male too inexperienced? And it would not depend on stats, these battles. It would depend on EXP. So, there is a very slim chance this might work. Support.



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mau | g1 6k frontal
3ros cel (#32469)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 02:14:19
No support with the current model, sorry. If the cooldown was offset to 1 month, similar to the early retirement cooldown, then, perhaps. A fee should be associated with it, as well, as this system would hardly be fair on people who have paid to retire their male in the past.

Furthermore, the admins have mentioned in the past that submales being able to mate would never happen. The only reason there are submale slots currently is that users complained that is was hard to breed a suitable male cub in the retirement period of the main male, as male cubs formerly used to run away when they turned 2 years of age.



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the Scy (#18822)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 02:39:25
As stated earlier in my previous comment, I totally support this idea but based on Lism's suggestion I propose a couple of tweaks to it.

Instead of every 7 days, perhaps expand that out to 1 month, with a 1 month cooldown. I never liked how much they charge for early retirement, but I can see the reasonining behind such a fee. Perhaps here we could be looking at either, for example, 2-3 GB or a hefty SB fee, perhaps 5,000-6,000.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 03:06:40
Just something to compare it to:
Some people already suggested an SB early retirement fee and it was rejected by the staff. So making it an SB fee or any lower (like a free try) will earn a decline.



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Tiaret (#27435)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 04:23:37
Hey Axel :] No doubt you’re getting a little tired of these discussions so thanks for taking the time to reply. I’ll do my best to address your points.

1-3. If these were problems for the developers, there would be ways to balance them out. It doesn’t need to be exactly like NPC fights, I was just using them as a point of reference. Using a different battle system would obviously be great too, whatever the developers thought was most appropriate given the current state of the game when this was implemented. If they didn’t want to put the time into programming a fight in that way, it could just as easily be a random percentage chance to win (similar to the notifications we get when a female is bred as to whether they are pregnant or not).

I realize that sub male breeding was officially declined, and since I wasn’t around when this public meeting was held, I’m not familiar with exactly what was said (was it held in a thread or a public chat or what? Is there a place I can read a transcript?). But managing the best I can here, I’m saying that this would not be sub male breeding. It’s just a different system to help rotate your dominant male more frequently, without having to retire him right away, which I personally gather is something that a lot of people seem to want. Obviously that’s subjective though and I can’t speak for everyone.

Since other people have posted as well, I realize that the GB income is a concern and I’ve done some more thinking on it. But I’m going to address some comments that others have made and then lay out a change to my proposition.

@ Tufty, I don’t think I personally like the idea of age limiting. Because even though it’s thematically believable, I don’t see a really good reason for it mechanically other than that it would affect game play in a negative way.

@Lisim, I don’t really think that it not being fair to people who have had to do things in the past is a very high priority reason to negate an update. For example, the stat nerf in some ways wasn’t fair to tons of people who bred for stats for a long time. It did produce a temporary negative atmosphere because of players who didn’t like the change. But there’s an adjustment period and overall the update was in the games best interest, to balance it and make it better. We’re still in a beta phase and it’s likely that the game is going to go through some more growing pains like that before it’s finished. Personally I don’t think that avoiding those growing pains is a good for the game in the long run.

But can I also ask why you think the cool down should be longer? Do you have a specific reason?

And again, like I said to Axel, this wouldn’t be sub males being able to mate. it would be a way to circulate your main male more frequently. Submales would still not be able to mate, only the main stud.

@Estefan, I’m also curious why you think the cool down should be lengthened? Is there some reason for it to be longer? What’s the rationale for that?

I agree with you about a GB fee though. So I’m gonna lay out some changes that I think are appropriate:

Proposed changes
Thematic: Fights for dominance of a pride are an act of ceremony as much as usurption. Defy tradition and you run the risk of losing the Pride’s good opinion. Presenting the dominant male with golden beetles signals your intent to challenge.
Mechanically: Challenges cost 2 Golden Beetles! I still believe that a 7 day cool down would be the best for this price.
Rationale: I’ve chosen 2 golden beetles, which is relatively low, but considering that there is a chance for the sub male to fail, I believe a higher price would leave a very bad taste in players mouths. New mechanics should make gameplay more enjoyable, not less.
So because I wanted a low price, I still think a shorter cool down would be best. Since you are all right, people would pay the 10GB to retire their male much less often. But I think a LOT MORE people would be willing to spend 2GB every 7 days. Possibly even amounting to greater site-wide total GB spending than main male retiring would. I think it is a lot easier (from a psychological standpoint) for customers to spend a smaller amount of GB more frequently than it is to spend a LARGE sum all at once.

My argument is hinging on an assumption that I’m not sure is true or not: That the early retirement fee is one of the sites most often purchased Gold Beetle features, or at least is roughly equal to purchases of other items.



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Edited on 11/06/14 by Tiaret (#27435)

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3ros cel (#32469)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 05:03:42
The reason I propose an extension of the cooldown is the following. If you swap your king successfully every two weeks, you get extra stud slots. To explain this, take the following into account.

First week this is implemented, say you use up all the stud slots on your male in the first 3-4 days. Then you swap the male, and have all the stud slots of the other male. Cooldown, you have average slots. The week after, you have the potential for double slots once again.

I do realise it's not a 100% rate, but still, this does pose a problem, imho, as it results in a chance of a lot more slots and cubs. Perhaps have it 1 week for an unsuccessful challenge, and longer for a successful one to avoid exploitation?



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Edited on 11/06/14 by Lisim | BBQ Floof (#32469)

Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 06:13:28
@Tiaret
Truth is, you cannot think up a fair system. making it a random draw would be unprofessional and unfair. Some get lucky while others would not? How would that work? Perhaps working on a battle system yourself would do better in convincing us. If the battle system is equally hard, full with effort and the winning can only be achieved by hard work.... then okay. But as long as it is easy, a free swap and can be done every week is... a little too much.

The submale breeding was declined by the staff on a public meeting held on a video chat. Sadly there is no written down text, but many heard it when Abbey clearly said she will not add it due to the problems and disaster it can cause on the market. Stats and cub market reasons. And these are valid concerns.

About why it would be more unfair to people who purchased the early retirement.... Simply you cannot compare stats with early retirement. Stats are and can only be acquired through playing the game. If you trade with others for GB, that is not the developer's concern. But if the game itself asks for GB for a feature, many people actually buy and use it.... then it suddenly becomes a free or SB feature... it will cause justified complaints. The key is the purchase of the item. I would also complain if the Oasis customization would become an SB or even free feature. And I would complain rightfully, because I purchased it for real money, while others can now do so for free.

Saying that the game is still in beta does not make such complaints invalid or unjustified. So it is best to be careful when thinking up such features.

Lengthening the cooldowns is needed so swaps dont happen all the time. It can become an abused feature in the future if you have to wait only 7 days... It will seem like what people are trying to do. Get the submale breeding feature. Because you technically will have 2 or more males to breed, because you dont just have to have 1 submale. You can have many more, which can swap places every 7 days.

These are the main problems:
- Still too cheap.
- Cooldown too short.
- How would the battle look like?
- What negative effect would the submale suffer if he loses the challenge?

Because still the greatest goal is to get people to buy the 10GB early retirement, so it must be more alluring than the challenge, and the endless swapping should be discouraged. It would be abused severely.
Negative effects are there to solve this issue.
Simply, there can be a far greater chance for the submale getting chased off by the main male than for him to succeed overthrowing the king. And you cannot reclaim.



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Edited on 11/06/14 by Axel [B.A.M.F.] (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 10:05:24
I have to say no support.

I'm going to try and avoid a drawn out discussion on this. All I want to say is that I have actually PLAYED a game that had this exact sort of system with subs challenging dominants. Its WAY more trouble than its worth. Its tedious, and annoying, easily abused, a ton of work to make, and after while its NOT FUN. Almost an exercise in torture really, particularly if you like your male.



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Tufty (#29680)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 18:15:58
Well, we need to make it hard for the sub male to win, otherwise this would be an easy way out of paying retirement fees. So perhaps 5 GB to try this, and I truly think it should be dependent on EXP who wins, as it is quite hard to get a sub male's EXP up. An age limit makes sense, and makes it harder for the sub male to win. And it shouldn't be like PvP fights, because you can roar all the time and the sub male will win if you do that.

"Truth is, you cannot think up a fair system. making it a random draw would be unprofessional and unfair. Some get lucky while others would not? How would that work? Perhaps working on a battle system yourself would do better in convincing us. If the battle system is equally hard, full with effort and the winning can only be achieved by hard work.... then okay. But as long as it is easy, a free swap and can be done every week is... a little too much."
This should not be done every week. Every month, more like. It would not be a random draw, as I said above it should be dependent on EXP, making it hard for the sub male to win. It would not be free to try this, it should cost around 5-8GB, but not as much as the early retirement fees, and I think 8 GB is a little much but I will leave that to devs.

So, summarizing it:
"These are the main problems:
- Still too cheap.
- Cooldown too short.
- How would the battle look like?
- What negative effect would the submale suffer if he loses the challenge?"

-Still to cheap could be solved by making it cost 5-8GB.
-Cooldown too short, the cooldown could be a month.
-How would the battle look like? Kinda like a PvP battle, where you can swipe or bite, but you do not have the option to roar or flee. It would be EXP dependant, as said before, on who wins.
-What negative effect would the submale suffer if he loses the challenge? Hunger and mood would lower, and he could not patrol for 2-3 weeks. He cannot be sold or traded while recovering. Or, how about this: He could not patrol, would suffer mood loss and hunger, and could only be healed with herbs bought from the monkey, or Murphy. (The quest snake)

If you think I have rambled on and repeated too much, sorry! I'm not really used to Chatter debates.




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