Posted by Fight For Leadership! [Mechanic Suggestion]

Tiaret (#27435)

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Posted on
2014-06-10 06:03:04
Alright so I've recently been reading up on some of the ideas that other people have for being able to breed your submales. There seems to be A LOT of people who want to be able to breed their submales, but also a lot of concerns with how this would work, and what it would do to stat creep and the cub market.

Personally, I love having a diverse gene pool to breed from, and would love to be able to breed my submales. But I agree with everyone else, there are a lot of things that could go wrong if this was allowed, and I don't think it's reasonable or wise to ask for multiple studs breeding at the same time in the same lair. So I tried to create an idea that would satisfy all sides of the argument while still staying true to what (I think?) the developers want for the game, as well as Liodens theme as a Lion simulation game. So here's my idea, I will try to be concise:

Fight For Leadership Mechanic Implementation

- Mechanic: Players will be able to switch Main Males with one of their subs
- Theme/Flavor: Pride politics are a complex thing, and your male lions are competition for leadership of the Pride!
- How it would all work: Players will have the option to simulate challenge for leadership of their den. If they want to replace their main male with a sub, they can have that sub issue a challenge to the main male. An NPC style battle will take place. If the submale is successful, It becomes the new stud of the pride and the old stud becomes a (very much disgraced) submale. If the sub was unsuccessful, it remains a sub.
- Precautions to balance the difficulty of the mechanic: Fights would be on a one week cooldown. After a lion has earned leadership, it can not be challenged by another male for seven days (Flavor: it has struck fear in the hearts of the pride's males!). If a lion is unsuccessful in it's challenge, it can not challenge again for seven days (Flavor: It must have time to lick it's emotional and physical wounds!). Main Males will suffer an energy decrease each battle. Subs will suffer hunger increase.
- Bonus features: chances to earn scar decors, main males or winners earn experience from the battles

How It would satisfy different Lioden Players:

1. ROLEPLAYERS - They want to have deep den stories and struggles for power within their den. This mechanic has a ton of flavour and opportunity for roleplayers who love to mimic their stories as closely as possible!
2. MARKING BREEDERS - Want a more diverse gene pool to breed from, and a lot of them want to avoid inbreeding. They also have a ton of ideas for cubs that are limited by having only one male to choose from in their den. This gives more meaning to their breeding projects, a wider range of genetics to choose from, the chance to enjoy breeding for vastly different looks, and more value to the male cubs they breed. They also get to be more careful about planning their breeding schedule.
3. STAT BREEDERS, this gives people who loves stats another reason to breed for them and opens up the market for their cubs even more! Especially if the battles that take place are stat based, and earn experience. This is another way to help train your lions and increase their stats.
4. THE MARKET would be diversified by more cubs. It also doesn't have the same issue as having all your subs able to breed at once (Cubs overflowing the market, because with this option, you still only have one stud at once). I predict that it would also INCREASE the value of male cubs, bringing them closer to female cubs in value. People would have a good reason to want nice submales.
5. THEMATICALLY it is congruent with Lioden's lore, and that is awesome!! It adds another layer of gratifying realism to the game, while satisfying the different needs of gamers with varying playstyles.


It sounds like a great idea to me, to be honest. But I'll admit there are probably things that I have not thought of! Please let me know your concerns, I'd love to hear them an discuss with you! Either why or why not you would be interested in this mechanic, or changes that you think might need to be made to it.


EDIT:

Proposed changes
Thematic: Fights for dominance of a pride are an act of ceremony as much as usurption. Defy tradition and you run the risk of losing the Pride’s good opinion. Presenting the dominant male with golden beetles signals your intent to challenge.
Mechanically: Challenges cost 2 Golden Beetles! I still believe that a 7 day cool down would be the best for this price.
Rationale: I’ve chosen 2 golden beetles, which is relatively low, but considering that there is a chance for the sub male to fail, I believe a higher price would leave a very bad taste in players mouths. New mechanics should make gameplay more enjoyable, not less.
So because I wanted a low price, I still think a shorter cool down would be best. Since you are all right, people would pay the 10GB to retire their male much less often. But I think a LOT MORE people would be willing to spend 2GB every 7 days. Possibly even amounting to greater site-wide total GB spending than main male retiring would. I think it is a lot easier (from a psychological standpoint) for customers to spend a smaller amount of GB more frequently than it is to spend a LARGE sum all at once.

My argument is hinging on an assumption that I’m not sure is true or not: That the early retirement fee is one of the sites most often purchased Gold Beetle features, or at least is roughly equal to purchases of other items.



This suggestion has 91 supports and 1 NO support.



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Edited on 13/06/14 by Tiaret (#27435)

Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-06-11 18:31:03
Making it dependent on exp is an easy way to cheat. Especially for new members, and especially if you can indeed swap your main male with your submale and he becomes a sub, who can in the end be sold. New members can buy higher level subs and easily win the battle...

With this system, leveling a 'submale' would become easy.

1. You get your first rolled male as a new member, but you dont level him, you dont play him. You simply buy a higher level submale and make them battle. Because the main male has no levels, he will lose and becomes submale, while the higher statted and higher level submale becomes the main male.

2. People would simply choose to not level their lions. You dont need levels to breed and stud.

3. Exp would not be gained by neither the submale, neither the main male to swap between 4-5 males at a time every month.

4. Many events offer exp giving items, which can be hoarded and used at will for submales to outlevel the main male and 100% succeed in battle. We have 2 events so far that give exp items.

5. People can easily work together. They can keep swapping their males, so keep leveling submales as kings equally, then sell them as 100% king overthrowers once they have a higher level submale themselves.

The exp system is all too easy to cheat.

Besides, I dont think it would be profitable in a long run for the game, neither for the developers, neither for the players, neither for the market if some people could swap their males at will, even if it is every month.

A submale is and shall stay the heir who will eventually become king once the main male dies. He would not challenge the main male because he will get all females eventually as a stronger lion than he is now.

And this would pretty much make the heritage officially completely and devastatingly bugged beyond true repair. It is already bugged, but this would destroy it completely.

Still no support.



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Tufty (#29680)

Blessed
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Posted on
2014-06-11 20:08:13
Well, now you've said this, having it dependant on EXP would be an easy way to cheat. So perhaps dependant on something else? I don't know...In fact, I can't really find a way the fight would be challenging, because it is too easy to cheat. Perhaps we could make it so your main has to be at least level 10 in order to fight? So it would be harder? Because it takes a long time to get lots of EXP-boosting items.



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Mask {|Returned from
Hiatus|} (#18537)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2014-06-13 07:43:52
No offense, but the staff already declined submale breeding, as stated by Axel. So there's no point in making a topic about it, if it's never going to be implemented. Sure, even I wish we could have submale breeding, but if the staff said no, then it's a no. No amount of players posting Topics in the Game Development section, or giving their support to such topics, is going to change that.

Also, the way that you suggested have submales swap with current kings is basically an invitation for everyone to start over-breeding high-stat/pretty cubs, therefore making the economy even worse than it is now. You might as well just take away public studding, as well. I mean, who wants to spend 500 SB on a good stud every time they want to breed, when they could just spend a little time searching for a couple nice subs, train them up, and use them for their prides? There are simply too many complications that no matter how much you add-on or alter your idea, it's just not going to work.

I completely agree with Axel. No support.



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Ares (#20765)

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Posted on
2014-06-14 17:40:00
I guess I'm just confused as to why something like this is so highly desired that there is any debate to it, honestly.

Not saying that the desires of anyone posting are silly but if we are really just trying to make the game easier or, in a way, more convenient for us, then why are we playing it? Personally, I like a game with a little more intellectual challenge than just clicking random links but the implementation of something like this would take that away. I'm not trying to belittle your idea but a system such as what seems to be suggested would just make it easier for us to cheat our way through the game.

If we want variety, pay for outside studs or buy new cubs. Or, if we really just want a new male, pay the GB fee and retire him early. I see no reason to implement sub-male challenges since, unless the fee was set to 10 GB, it is basically just us asking for free handouts. Because, seriously, implementing a system that switches out your main male for a sub-male for anything less than the current cost is a handout from the developers.

I'm not even going to get into the ramifications of abusing the system (like swapping sub-males with players now to quickly raise stats) or the hurt that this would cause for people who do pay or save up the GB for early retirement. Why continue changing the game in the direction that this suggestion seems to be taking? Why don't we just play the game and not expect everything to essentially be spoon-fed to us?



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Blossom Witch (Clean
Ferus) (#6408)

Aztec Knight
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Posted on
2014-06-15 07:47:18
No support as list above
And do not want submales breed able.



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BoneSmirk [wreck.] (#31477)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2014-06-16 04:34:58
No support for a variety of reasons, most of which were listed here, but mostly because any submale switching system based upon combat would be inherently unfair.

A npc styled fight with the current combat system, even if the submale has a high chance of losing, is unfair because the current combat system seems to be little more than RNG.

The staff are working on improving combat, but even a fight based on the new system would (potentially, depending on how the system is) be unfair because of the huge gap there is between males when it comes to stats. Your submale could be high statted and completely steamroll your current king, or be so low statted (but gorgeous) and be KO'd himself.

The only way I could see combat working would be if the stats of the lions themselves scaled, either to the higher statted or lower statted lion, so that the fight between the two is truly fair.

Even then, though, the system would be unfair to those who pay the 10gb to retire their males. I believe that it is one of the main reasons people buy gb, and that revenue is important to the site. For this 'Fight for Leadership' mechanic to be fair and balanced, the cost of doing it would have to be equal to the 10gb it costs others to retire their males. While it doesn't have to cost 10gb, the time and effort needed to successfully go through the mechanic would have to be equal to 10gb. This makes it fair to other players who pay the 10gb, but it also makes both options of switch males viable.

There are a lot of good suggestions and concerns that people have pointed out that could potentially make this work, and I have an idea of my own that could make it more fair and viable, but I think I've rambled enough as it is haha.



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AzurePegasus (#30305)

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Posted on
2014-07-01 13:41:35
No support. Subs are inbreedable and will stay that way, as stated by multiple people here and by the mods. Those who save up GB to retire old males will have lost either a lot of time, money, or SB. Hint, hint.
*points to self*



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HearMeRoar (#27573)

Divine
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Posted on
2014-07-01 14:00:16
See I have read through this and seen other people's ideas and points of views. Yes the admins and creators said they wouldn't make sub males able to breed. That is not what has been suggested. You don't get to breed with every sub male and so on. No, you have one chance every week. What your saying and counting on is if someone somehow cheats the system and makes the the switch every week. That is impossible and I know you people arguing know it.
As said before, of course it shouldn't have to depend on exp. If it did then, yes, you would have ways to cheat the system with trading... etc. How about if you base the system on something else new?
I know, I know. This would give the developers more things to work on, but... (yep the inevitable but) this is in beta. This site will be worked on about things. It's like the breeding system. I never asked for any of that and yet we still have it implemented. That system probably took a whole lot of time to make too. Some people love the new things being added and some don't
It is the fact of life. There are always going to be the people who pick out the tiniest problems that could easily be remedied and make them into something that is more extreme then what they are. Then there are people who take their time and try to fix whatever the other person has tried to break apart.
Now, let's get onto another issue that has popped up. The waiting time should be somewhere to start. Yes a week is a small amount of time but if your the unlucky player who loses over and over that week is really long. Extremely long even. A whole month doesn't make a lot of sense to me in the least. Sure you can't truly abuse the system but you have to think about the lower class of people not only the upper class. If there was an easy medium to this I bet more people would be able to agree with the idea in itself. However, I doubt that we will ever find something that pleases everyone. That is impossible. I propose we keep the week time but we don't make it for 5GB. That is half of what you would pay to retire for a chance at getting your sub male to become your main male.
Okay so let us touch upon something else that has been brought up. The system of how you should be able to win or lose in a battle for power. Well this seems like the biggest area where everyone is having fits over. Let's just break it down and see what we can do with it. If we want to make it fair then we have to discount stats, skill, and exp. So now we are just down to two beautiful(or ugly) lions battling it out. How in the world are we suppose to choose which one out of the two wins. First off I would like to propose that we have something else for males to make them better improved, more realistic but still stable in the game play scenario. Perhaps the system should be reliant on multiply things, not just one system that people could abuse.
As in real life lions have different advantages when they are fighting for power. One should be obvious, their age. Age would matter in real life because if you were too young you would be too inexperienced to be able to beat the main male. If you were too old then you would be weaker and less able to defend yourself. Another thing that it should rely on is how long you have had the certain lion since your pride may reject the fact that this male from a whole different territory has come to take over. This would solve the trading issue. Perhaps you would have to have the male for a certain amount of time for it to really have an effect and make it able to fight for control over the pride. Another thing that would help it out is that you can't level up your subs higher then your main male. This would take away the leveling issues and make things a bit more less rocky.
Those few ideas are just somethings I have thought up in the past few minutes. Not very detailed, I know, but at least I have ways to improve things. Anyway, the fact that you couldn't level up your sub higher then your main would dissolve the exp. argument. Another thing could be that you can't challenge the main male if your sub has too much skill or stat. The benchmarkers for this would have to be set by someone with more skill set at running sites then me since I am no where near qualified to estimate how that would work out.

Remember; These are just some ideas. It's not like I have developed them to the point that they don't have any holes or that everyone will be happy with them. Though, as I said beforehand, no one will ever be able to make everyone happy. It's the point of making the majority happy while keeping the people who run the site happy.

If there are any holes, I would like you to tell me about them but! give a solution to them as well in your complaint about it. It's surprising that no one has given a way to rectify the problem in their complaint about the idea.
I haven't yet decided which side of the argument I belong on since I am just someone who likes to help fix things for other people. Though I am leaning more so toward the idea stated.
Thank you for taking time to read all of this ranting of mine and please at least try to think of ways to patch up some of the holes in the ideas.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-07-01 19:39:47
There is still a chance of people switching males regularly even if it is a 'chance'. It IS a chance.

So, if the submale cannot have more stats, more skill, more level than the main male, then how in the world would this even work? There is no system that would make such a 'chance' fair.

1. Stats system: Many times the submale has more stats than the main, hence why many would like to switch them. 100% overthrowing. Or if the submale cannot have as much as the main male, then this system is invalid.

2. Exp system: There are all too many items that can raise exp from events. Just hoard them and use them on your sub. If the sub cannot have more than the main, then this system is invalid.

3. Age system: The main male usually is older than the sub, thus the sub will 100% overthrow. And would it have a general age where the boost for the sub counts? The main is still in his prime at the age of 14 even. Maybe from the age of 15 he would start lacking on strength, but then you can retire for free ._. Age doesnt always mean weakness if we could from 14-, because age gives experience in fights, and the main male will easily slap the living hell out of the sub with a single well-placed strike. It is flawed. The game already enables you to switch males so the sub 'overthrowing' the main male if it is your choice at the age of 15.

Random system: Let's not even talk about this... We all know this wouldnt work...

The reason why no one offers a solution is because there is no way to make this work without making it a 100% success or a 100% loss. Or to make it fair towards those who already paid the 10GB to retire early. One cannot ignore them. This system is not desired by most. The idea would be neat for some, but mostly those who like this dont think of the consequences or how this would even affect the market/studding/cub population/gameplay.

Perhaps pay 2GB for a 5% chance to succeed, but that's it. And have a 10% chance that the sub is chased off if he doesnt succeed. And you cannot reclaim, avoiding abuse of the feature.



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Maddi (main) (#12215)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2014-07-01 19:45:34
Support but, not for switching males out. I believe that this could be done for sub males to get a few days of "breeding" with the females.

Which does happen in the wild, when two or more lions live in a pride together and "rule it". Which is basically how your submales are, they rule under the dominate male(your king)

So, I would say allow this, but not with retiring. You submale if he wins, will be given three days to breed with the females in your pride- that is all. And, those females can reject him easily if they wish.




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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-07-01 21:40:03
@Maddi:
The problem is that the submale is not the co-leader. It is the heir and nothing else. He does not rule the pride with your main male. He is the next king, his only task being to train until his turn comes up. This is why any such suggestions are quite... out of place.

I am sure that people are well aware how it goes in a real life pride, but we are here in a game, where the submale slot was only introduced to make retiring easier. Not needing to have a male cub under two years within your pride just as the male is about to die. The slot makes it easier. Thus, he is the heir and not the co-leader of the pride.



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Jack{CBP}{CC}{Ghost} (#20757)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2014-08-24 06:16:00
I know that the sub slot is for having an heir ready for its placement. But then why are you able to buy more then one slot. An i don't see the issue of them being able to breed as stated after having a fight or something. As two people at least now have said in real life wild lions that have more then one male ruleing together they both breed the prides females. An it shouldn't be they breed all the time. But at least perhaps once a week with a certain amount of females. An it should only be with in your own pride.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2014-08-24 07:14:19
Jack:
The reason why there is more than one slot is because sometimes people cannot choose at first and need time to think about it. Maybe they see a nice male for sale and decide to buy it, then decide later. Others like having more than one or two males in their pride. Some people like to keep more than one for RP purposes. Again others have already generations of submales.

Again, the fact that real life wild lions can have more than one male breeding in the pride is an invalid argument on Lioden. The submale will never breed because it is the heir that you prepare. The submale slot was only implemented to make retiring easier and not to have two males to breed. They are not on the same rank.

And that the male would be able to not be studded can be easily bypassed by old-fashioned studding.

The developers already declined all ideas concerning SB/free early retirement. And this idea would just do the same.



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Jack{CBP}{CC}{Ghost} (#20757)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2014-08-25 03:21:15
Yeah i use my slot for stat replacement an the extra slot for heir. Though I do have a different type of male on my side account then my main account.

I would love to breed a different type of lion. An I wouldn't want to waste all the gb I had paid for with my own money to throw it in the toilet so to speak to change my main lions out look just to breed a different type of lion.

An yes i could just breed him to a female but to truly fine tune a good cub you need a good stud. An yes you can breed to other peoples lions.

But I rather do the breeding myself.

That is what makes the game fun for me. An I hope this didn't come off rude :/ wasn't trying to be.



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{DHS}Seria - |Primal
Lilac 4K| (#10183)

Sexy
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Posted on
2014-08-25 03:39:42
Sorry to everyone saying no support, but I used to disagree with people wanting to breed their submales, but this idea is actually really nice, and with the edit added in, I don't believe LioDen would be losing GB, if anything, they may be gaining more. Because I believe that most players would be wanting to change up their submales, including newer users, therefore there would be more +2gb going toward the site at a time, instead of retiring with 10gb after long waits, and then that player not wanting to retire their male any more(although the retire your male option will still be used, so that's 10gb, ALONG with all the +2gb). And since you wouldn't be breeding with your sub males, they're only being switched out, that makes no difference in our already seemingly bad cub market. If anything, like stated, it would bring more variety around LioDen, which could potentially help the cub market. There's actually a lot of great perks about this idea. And I know a lot of people do complain about LioDen not being "realistic" enough, so this would add a realistic effect to the game.



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