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| Posted by | NPC Battle revamp/Stat Use/Cap |
 Axel (#6627) Pervert View Forum Posts  Posted on 2015-01-14 05:54:49 |
Hey everyone. This idea came into being in connection to my other Suggestion about a Biome Revamp. --------------- I was trying to think of new ways to apply stats to PVE, or at least to NPC fights. The problem with all appropriate ways is that stats are simply inheritable. The base stats are growing and that is something one just cannot stop. The next generation will always be always higher in stats than the previous. So maybe the stat growth was slowed to a crawl but it is still ongoing. And will continue. New Stats Usage in PVE:Stats would gain new uses in battles, all connected to what they are named. Traits: - Cap increases at each Biome. - Cap is affected by skill. - See below. - Submales should not gain skill from patrols, only stats. They should build it as leader. - Stats get removed equally from all traits according to their % value compared to overall stats in order to fit into cap. This does NOT remove the stats from your lion! Just for the NPC fight. - Cap has no say in stat breeding and training, does not hinder statgain and breeding for stats. Hence why I call it invisible cap. It only, strictly only appears at NPC battles. - Higher stats enable easier NPC fights, so having higher stats pays off despite the cap. - Cap does not affect PVP. Suggested max stat caps: (Took new members into account, and that perhaps with explore stat interactions statgain might be a bit higher for male lions -see below) Level 1 - Temperate Savannah - Cap 50 stats Level 2-5 - Shrubland - Cap 100 Stats Level 6-10 - Tropical Forest - Cap 250 stats Level 11-15 - Dry Savannah - Cap 450 stats Level 16-20 - Rocky Hills - Cap 650 stats Level 21-25 - Arid Desert - Cap 800 stats Level 26 - 30 - Marshlands - Cap 1000 stats Level 31 + - Waterhole - Cap 1500 stats Eg.: A lion has these traits as lvl1 lion: Strength: 424 Stamina: 387 Agility: 438 Speed: 432 Smarts: 393 Actual stats considered for NPC battles at lvl 1 Biome with max cap: Strength: 10 Stamina: 9 Agility: 11 Speed: 10 Smarts: 10 Same lion with lvl20 biome max cap: Strength: 130 Stamina: 123 Agility: 137 Speed: 137 Smarts: 123 (My formula per stat trait: Eg.: Strength for lvl 20 - 424/2074 = 0,2.--- 0,2x650 = 130) --Of course formula can be changed and applied by developers as they see fit, just make sure we can follow it so we can see our progress-- Upon reaching next biome, the previous cap is lifted to match the cap of the next biome. Newest cap applies even if lion goes back to previous Biome. This way NPCs in previous Biome become even easier to beat but of course will give less rewards. Eg.: Your lion was lvl10 with 500 stats. Reached max skill of 120, so max cap of 250 stats is reached for Tropical Forest. Only 250 stats apply for the biome. Then lion reaches lvl11. Goes to Dry Savannah. 250 cap is lifted to 450 stats cap. Lion can go back to Tropical Forest, where his stat cap remains 450. Has more stats to fight with and NPCs become easier. -------------- Changes to BoostsBoosts remain completely untouched and independent of the stat cap per Biome. They apply according to your whole stats. Boosts should be giving different advantages in NPC battles. - Strength - 5% damage bonus per arrow - Stamina - 5% Health bonus per arrow - Visible health numbers! - Agility - 5% dodge bonus per arrow - Speed - 5% chance of double attacks per arrow - Smarts - 5% accuracy per arrow There can be more bonuses than just one if more of your stats are higher than the NPC’s. These apply for enemy too if they have a bonus. Bonus arrows applied: - Per stat trait (Eg.: Strength) 1. arrow: 5 stat difference 2. arrow: 15 stat difference 3. arrow: 45 stat difference 4. arrow: 135 stat difference 5. arrow: 405 stat difference This way the greater bonuses will be harder to acquire. They after all will mean more. Stat Gain Modified:We also should be able to gather specific stats in order to truly work on a strategy and what kind of lion we want. (Eg.: concentrate on speed and agility, or concentrate on strength and stamina, or any combination). PVP Battles:PVP battle has the same interaction choices as current NPC battles. Same bonuses and stat abilities apply. Other Player Suggestions:Kima (#53124) - I was thinking Impression might have to do with giving a small bonus to “Roar” as that tends to scare or chase off enemies? Just a small bonus, but the more ‘Impressive’ you are, the more chance you have to intimidate something to run off with a loud roar. -------------- Thank you for reading, |
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Lukio (#7391)
Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-15 02:55:03 |
I'm interested, but what would be the point of having stats if there is a cap? This would also only work if your other suggestion of accepted since it takes most lions almost their entire lifetime to reach even the first few biomes. I would prefer to see the cap raised per level, rather than per biome, and I think that once the cap is raised it should stay raised.  0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 15/01/15 by Lukio (#7391) |
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Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-15 03:46:51 |
Cap is necessary. Absolutely necessary I am afraid. Otherwise there is no way to give NPCs a set stat range and a base value. There would be no rise of difficulty. Having higher stats however does pay off. In no way is the advantage of having 5k stats all lost during an NPC battle. How? Boosts. You know the arrows we get. They count without cap. So the higher stats you have, the more boost you will get, so the easier it is to beat NPCs despite the stat cap per Biome. ------- This suggestion would work without my other suggestion. It is not necessary and not mandatory to reach the highest level to have fun and play the game. Even with this suggestion. ------- It would count per Biome because all Biome animals probably would be synced to ascend in difficulty, depending on how difficult they would be for the lion to beat. Think about an MMORPG game. There are areas that answer to a level range and not for a single level. And these mobs have easy, medium, and hard difficulties. The cap per biome ensures that despite you having 10k stats on your lion you will still feel the difference and challenge in difficulty through the Biome. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Lukio (#7391)
Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-15 09:52:03 |
Hmm, I feel better about this suggestion after getting that cleared up. Tentative support. ^,^ 0 players like this post! Like? |
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❝dynne❞ (#37227)
Impeccable View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-15 23:51:40 |
So, this is a cap per Biome? Like, if we have a 1000 stat lion, his stats would be adjusted per area? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-16 00:23:41 |
Yep, but ONLY during NPC battles. Your stats will not get reduced in any other actions so it doesnt hinder progress. It is just to make sure difficulty is felt by all and nobody one-hit kills every NPC. This doesnt mean high stats will not count. The higher your stats are compared to an NPC, the more bonus you get. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Africa (#53124)
Famous View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-16 07:44:20 |
Hmm, it’s an interesting idea. I kind of like it. I support, though I do have a few things I don’t agree with and/or would like to throw out there. I do think that sub-males should be able to get skill while patrolling. I view skill for males as being “the ability to fight well” while for females it’s “skill for hunting”. If sub-males are patrolling around, I would assume they’re dealing with other predators and rogue lions (similar to how the main male does in Explore just without player help) so they should be able to gain some skill. I understand that would make it easier for them to defeat NPCs, but I feel like that is fair if you have a male you have patrolled extensively as you have put a ton of work into getting him those skills and stats. The caps you’re proposing would still be in effect so it wouldn’t give that huge of an advantage, but it would be a good reason to patrol your male other than just pure stats, which as I understand they are trying to prevent from being gained too fast. I agree with having some set stats and possibly some set traits for NPCs that we fight in Explore. I’m used to other games and it’s confusing/frustrating to me because I’m something of a ‘min-maxer’. I want to know how something works so I can be more effective. When it’s completely random, it bothers me because I spent every fight struggling to figure out what to do. Bonuses never seem to matter. The same animal never seems to have the same basic build. I never know what is going to be effect and what is not as there is absolutely no indicator. Every other game I’ve played with a combat system there are some things you can predict/know about each type of NPC you’re fighting. You can go “oh, this one is weak toward this move” or “this type is dangerous in melee so you should fight it at range” or...well, anything. I understand they are going for realism when some lions might be weak, some lions might be stronger, but some traits are just going to be what they are for a species. A rhino is never going to be faster than a leopard, for example. A lion is not going to be stronger than an elephant. Things like that. I very much like the ideas of the stat bonuses/boosts. I really would like to know where I stand against the NPC, at least generally, so I have an idea of how to react and what to attempt to do have better luck in fights. Right now, it is highly frustrating because the same thing rarely works twice or if it does, it seems to be more dumb luck with no getting hit instead of actual skill. I, however, disagree with taking out the random stat gains. Here’s why. In all games where you can control the stats, people tend to take advantage of it. If strength gives a huge bonus to damage, people will do nothing but build strength. There are other games that have the same issue. The same “cookie cutter” build allows players to dominate fights so there’s no variation. It’s always the same. “If you have this build/stats/whatever and do this technique, you win”. I feel like that takes away some of the challenge of the game myself. I prefer a game where there is no way to have the “perfect design” so that you have to work and try and build things up. I like some randomness and some challenge because otherwise there’s not really any point in doing anything but ‘the cookiecutter’ version because nothing else is effective. However, as an alternative, what if there was something like lions having a predisposition toward certain traits? You don’t necessarily get to decide they only get this trait, but perhaps a small bonus toward a certain trait or two? Some lions could be born naturally smarter or stronger so they are slightly more likely to gain stats in that particular area? It would add some realism and it would be rather interesting to have, say, the cub of a particularly smart lioness inherit higher intelligence from the mother? Or a particularly strong male sire stronger cubs? It would still be random and it would only be a small bonus, but I think it could add a fun quality to breeding that wouldn’t “make or break” the game yet still be enjoyable for those who want to breed toward it? Perhaps there could be a limit that each lion can only be ‘gifted’ in one area so no one can try and breed ‘super lions’ that are talented in all stats? A simple formula might be something like 45% change of inheriting the father’s trait, 45% chance of inheriting the mother’s trait, and 10% chance of a random trait? The 10% random trait could add some fun as there are sometimes animals/people born that get a particular trait that their parents don’t have, such as being unusual intelligence or playing music when both parents were ‘average’? Also, I had a random idea while reading this. What if Impression could figure in a little as well? I was thinking Impression might have to do with giving a small bonus to “Roar” as that tends to scare or chase off enemies? Just a small bonus, but the more ‘Impressive’ you are, the more chance you have to intimidate something to run off with a loud roar? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-16 08:32:01 |
@Kima: 1. Skill is left alone so people get to have the cap and can go through all aspects of the game to progress. The no-skill thing is the way to ensure that difficulty in Biomes lifts gradually, giving the player the feeling that the Biome becomes easier and easier as he levels his lion and maxes his skill. Giving him a feeling of achievement. If the submale gains skill too and goes into all Biomes with max skill, then where is the challenge again? I mean, I believe with this system NPCs would have the same stat-range to fit the cap. Some easier, some harder -harder NPCs are meant to gradually decrease difficulty with skill increase. If you have max skill for that Biome.... then you will have an easy time in the Biome altogether. Too easy. I think people can use the challenge. 2, Matter of random statgain: I have to disagree with your point here. I am playing MMORPGs where you get to pick your stats at each level up. This problem that you described only is an issue if one stat is given too great significance. However, if it is implemented in a smart manner, than there is no sure way you can win against others or NPCs. Sure, you can train your lion against specific NPCs but there will be always those that will beat you in return. Eg.: What does that high damage output use you if the other person has a ton of stats in agility and you cannot even hit them? Or they have speed instead and for each of your one hit they hit you twice? 3. Inborn trait bonus: I dont think this would be a good idea. For example, what if I want my lion to be fast and agile? In the end I cannot build him like that because he was born with a bonus for strength. I believe customization for stats would be more beneficial. Gives people the choice and full decision what their lion will become. 4. Impression use: I actually very much like the idea. I always wondered what determines when the enemy runs off and when it does not or how I could improve that. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Africa (#53124)
Famous View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-16 10:16:36 |
@Axel 1. I still disagree with that. Not everyone wants it to be extremely hard, though I don't mind personally. I've played plenty of MMOs and a lot of people don't enjoy the "lower levels" being super difficult. I think the lower levels should be easier so people can get a feel and progressively get harder. If that's not your playing style, that's fine, but for the general player, I don't think they would get anything but frustrated if it was difficult. Also, if the only way to get skill is PvP, that's not really balanced or fair. Not everyone wants to PvP. I think the system should be balanced for all playing styles. 2. I've played quite a few MMOs, Axel, and "choosing stats" in that fashion is exactly what I'm talking about. People get "cookiecutter specs" and that's the normal and the entire game play is invalidated because someone goes "oh, hey, this maximizes damage if you do this" and everyone is soon doing that if they want to get ahead. That is a huge issue with other browser games (which I won't mention because I believe we're not supposed to) and other MMOs like World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy, and others. If someone is just "cookiecutter" to beat this particular NPCs, all they have to do is just ignore the ones they don't like and trample over the ones they do, resulting in the system being unbalanced. I understand what you're saying about the dodging, but if your damage is so high you can one or two shot, who cares if they dodge a bunch? All it takes is one hit, right? That's simplifying, but that's the problem I see with allowing players too much control over the stats. 3. The inborn bonus would be a very small chance of gaining an extra stat in the trait is the way I'm thinking it. We're talking a 5% change of getting +1 in whatever stat, nothing drastic. I've already explained why I don't feel total control is a good idea because it's been proven in many, many games to result in players abusing the system. There are just too many ways for people to get around the way NPCs work because the coding can't be "smarter" than people. There's a well known browser game that has that issue. You spec your fighting team into this and nothing can touch you after a certain level. At all. Unless you have incredibly bad luck. And it's not very hard and doesn't take very long to get to that point. That makes their whole fighting aspect rather boring to me. There's no mechanics, no working out the NPC. You just hit two moves and boom, it's dead once you're over a certain low level. So I really don't agree with having that be an issue with Lioden because it will be an issue. It's always an issue in any kind of game where players get to decide the stats, I've found. I honestly can't think of one where it wasn't. 4. Thank you. I was thinking it might be kind of nice to have another use for Impression and I couldn't think of anything else that made as much sense for Roaring. On the other hand, I do like the general idea. I don't agree with everything, but I do agree with a lot and I do think the system could use some revamping and refining to make it less random and more about skill and strategy than just "I hope I hit it and it doesn't hit me!". Please know I'm not trying to be rude or tear down your idea or anything. I'm just tossing out my concerns and thoughts on the matter. Hopefully I managed to do so politely. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-16 18:28:30 |
@Kima: Dont worry, in no way do I think you are rude or anything. You are just voicing your concern. But if I myself get out of line, please warn me. 1. PVP would be changed. I am proposing for it to be just like the suggested NPC battle system. With a battle progress screen, stats uses and the bonuses. That way people can easily find lions they can beat. In my opinion PVP gets ignored too much. Like at my lion. I have trained him and he didnt need to fight PVP at all because he has all the skill he could get. That combined with the high stats makes me see the same difficulty though one Biome, making it boring in a long run. The skill is there to limit higher statted lions even within the cap, mainly to see the difficulty decreasing. I do agree that the skill penalty should be removed at lvl1 and decreased at lvl2-5 Biome but otherwise it makes sense to have people find some difficulties when they enter a Biome, then have some visible and significant feel of progress as they level up. But in no way does it mean that hard work and training isnt paid off. The bonuses count without cap. So if you have a 4000 or 5000 stats lion, this hard work is repaid by the bonuses. Because even through there is a cap and a skill penalty, you will still find NPC fights easier than those who have lower stats. 2. In Lioden's system NPCs appear randomly per Biome. It means that you can train for a specific NPC, but maybe that NPC will not appear, only for 10% of your time in the Biome. So it really does not pay off to concentrate on one NPC. The progress will be super slow then. Besides, just because you train for a single NPC doesnt mean this method doesnt work at other NPCs, just that the moves need to be adjusted. As for one-hit killing. It wouldnt work that way. The stats in no way would give you the ability and opportunity to one-hit kill anything that comes across. Hence why there is a cap for PVE, and I do plan on suggesting that at PVP the level cap should be removed and instead we should have an overall-stat cap at choosing our opponents. So you would only battle those who are in your stat range instead of level range. 3. Again, that issue with stat-choices only appears if one or two stats are given too much significance, so having them maxed would mean insta-win. If implemented right, this would not be an issue. Eg.: Concentrate on strength and stamina - high damage output and health Concentrate on speed and agility - High dodge rate and double attacks Concentrate on smarts and agility - High accuracy and dodge rate All of these can be perfect and can beat one another in battle. Yet still be weak against some NPCs and lions. There is no 100% combination. You will always have a weakness others can exploit and beat you. 4. I will add this to first to first post and credit you for the idea. Or do you want to make a different thread for it? I can link it too. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Africa (#53124)
Famous View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-17 06:30:36 |
No, no, you're fine, Axel. I just know that sometimes I tend to come off rude when I'm really just kind of direct/blunt without thinking about it. 1. So, how would PvP work then? Would the game take over your lion for PvP as it would be an NPC for challenges like that? Can you explain a little better how you're suggesting PvP work? 2. I understand that the NPCs are random, but I'm sure they would be in groups. For examples, rhinos, elephants, etc. would be "strong and slow", while things like leopards, cheetahs, etc. would probably be "fast and agile". You wouldn't really need to focus on one NPC so much as one "type" of NPC with the way things are somewhat simplified. There are also potentials to get around not having them spawn often. For example, you get on a quest to kill say...rhinos. You get Snake Scents, which aren't very rare. You train up to deal with rhinos and use Snake Scent. As long as you don't turn in the quest, you can have a much higher chance of them appearing for you. That's the kind of loopholes I'm worried about with allowing people to control stats too strongly. 3. I'm not quite following what you're meaning there. How would you prevent the concentration of stats? It sounds like you do want each stat to have a specific "boost" so how can you prevent them from being abused? A lion that's all "strength and stamina" would be able to be hit plenty but also hit back very hard, meaning dodging wouldn't matter near as much depending on the NPC. If it's speed/agility, they might have lower damage, but if they can't be hit and hit twice as much, they could output a considerable amount of damage even with the handicap. While I understand a player might be able to exploit a weakness, I'm worried that the NPCs won't because without exceptionally complex coding, there's really no way it can test and figure out the weakness? I may not be understanding correctly so if not, please let me know. I'm trying to figure out what you're meaning and I do feel like I'm missing a connection. 4. No, no, please feel free to add. It fits in with your suggestion so I'm perfectly content with you adding it to this idea. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 17/01/15 by Kima (#53124) |
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Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-17 18:30:48 |
1. Still need the explanation or did you find your answer in the last bit of my suggestion? 2. Quests are active from 1-3 days. Snake scent is more rare than you think and I have seen they are expensive sometimes. And not all NPC types are present in all Biomes. Plus the chance that the snake gives a quest for your type of NPC is about 10-15%, considering that it can give any quest for any animal in your or below level, or ask for hunting, or for items. Plus Snake Scent only works for 30 minutes and there is only as much NPC fight you can do. Plus snake scent only increases the chance to meet the animals. It doesnt mean you will not end up with half other NPCs during your explore. Or Perhaps the Snake Scent can be modified, so it only works as long as the quest wasnt completed. As soon as it is complete.... the item quits working. 3. The bonuses can only give a 25% boost to your fighting abilities. And that only if you have 5 arrows. 5 arrows need a 405 stat difference per stat trait. And as you progress from Biome to Biome, the animals get more and more stats to them. Eg.: The stat cap at Marshlands is 1000 stats. Which means that an NPC can have about 200 stats in a trait or even more because NPCs might get more stats than the cap if the developers see it as best. Which means you will need at least 605 stats in a single stat trait or even more to have 5 arrows. I am also sure that statgain will be modified to make sure people cannot just so reach the 5 arrows. Again, just because you have a high damage output, doesnt mean you will win. The NPC can easily double attack-kill you before you can hit it. Or dodge each one of your attacks and lands all of its hits without trouble. There will be no raising one stat trait without having to neglect others. Which will become your weakness. While you will beat one type of NPC, the other 10 will slaughter you where you stand. 4. Okay, thank you. I will edit. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Slade (#36600)
Lone Wanderer View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-17 20:02:10 |
No support. If there is a cap, there might as well be a cap on stats. It seems overly complicated. Stats currently do affect battling and its working fine. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-17 20:04:09 |
I am afraid it does not work fine, according to the complaints and what I experience. You are too fast to pass judgment. The cap only affects NPC fights, so there is no true cap on your lion's stats and how much he can get and have. Stats still affect NPC fights as a whole, but with necessary limits. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Slade (#36600)
Lone Wanderer View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-17 20:15:00 |
Why make it invisible when adjusting the battling system it self would be more logical. Ive had no trouble with the battling system. I lose some, I win some, but over all Ive never had any real issue, even with my rolled lions in the beginning. Strategy does matter too. Pick your battles, avoid ones you know you less likely to win. Gorillas, rhinos, elephants and such... Its not a quick judgment, just saying, its overly complicated suggestion for a basic problem and the problem seems to be more of the battling system its self, not the actual stats. It seems to me no matter what zone a person is in, they encounter animals that are over powered for their skill and level. However, it does make sense on a reality scale, which is what the Devs like. No matter how strong a lion is, its rare for one to win a fight with a rhino. Its just seems like a lot of over thinking. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Axel (#6627)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2015-01-17 21:07:45 |
But how do you adjust the battle system? This is also adjusting it and giving uses to all the stats, giving logic and a system to boosts, giving more control to the player instead of being baffled by sudden misses, facing the randomness of tactics, and the sudden unexplained low damage output and the unexplained high received damage although last few times you never got so much from the very same NPC. There are only few NPCs currently against which you can have set tactics. Everything else needs you to judge and stab in the dark to find the right move. Which many times ended in me losing right when I finally found what I needed to do, then all of a sudden at the next NPC fight with the same NPC it didnt work anymore. The randomness is unbearable. And this is not a basic problem, mind you, not for those who consider NPC fights a huge deal and a large part of their gameplay. For me PVE, explore, NPC fights are everything. Yet I am faced and dumbfounded at the sheer amount of randomness in it. It is not exciting. It is frustrating. Especially when you keep losing one battle after the other and you have no idea what just happened. I am not just speaking about large difficult NPCs. Hell, I have lost against dogs before many times because each and every single of my attacks missed and couldnt grab them. This is the problem. And in no way is this difficult. Simplified version: 1. NPCs gain set stats or at least a set stat range. 2. NPCs get a difficulty system (Eg.: Caracal will be the easy NPC, while Leopard would be the hardest.) More accurately: Fighting NPCs gains logic! 2. To protect the NPCs from getting one-hit killed, the NPC battles have stat caps on them which depend on Biomes. 3. To give players a sense of achievement and the feeling of progress through the levels, a skill penalty is there to limit the stat cap even further. As you level, the easier the NPCs become. Once again: Giving logic and a sense of progress. And giving uses to the so far very much useless skill. 4. Bonuses get logic behind them. There is a logic how much you get against what NPC and high bonuses will be harder to achieve. There is nothing complicated about this. It is just logic. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 18/01/15 by Axel (#6627) |
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