Also I just thought about this:
If hardmode prides had to worry about inbreeding, they would have to continually bring in ncls, or any other heritage less lions

You have liked this post!

I really like this idea. It would bring out certain ancestry lines that give good offspring and others that don't, something we dont really notice now. It would add a cool element to Lioden that it is lacking.

You have liked this post!

I don't think you should push the inbreeding mechanics onto people who don't want it. I mean, as others stated, a LOT of things could go wrong. And even if it isn't implemented, if you REALLY didn't like inbreeding, then just don't inbreed. There are clans dedicated to NOT inbreeding. Just join one of those for a whole community if you wanted.

And since there have been valid points made about how this will not help, for those saying "Don't support just for your own good", aren't you slightly being a hypocrite?

You have liked this post!

You make some good points Heda about people just flip flopping breeds.

You have liked this post!

I was a bit hurt when the one player said it was "dumb" I'm trying to get into stats, to which someone who read my post is being so kind as to help me start out :/

I've only been here one year, and I'm being called dumb... I've had plenty of that kind of negative talk from my older brother whenever he calls me useless, stupid, moron, etc.

Just a fair warning to the player who said that I'll be blocking you due to being hurt emotionally :/

anyway other than that I'm still against this and I hope you all have a great day

You have liked this post!

I pretty much agree with Heda.

For one: it already takes months of work to get one of those 'stat monster' lionesses to breed to (probably about a year's worth of planning/spending) one of those 'stat monster' kings, to produce a cub that can become a 'stat monster' himself. Your talking about turning months of work into possibly years: because like Heda pointed out, we have an extremely limited gene pool to work with. You know how many active kings are above 5k? About 2 dozen. You want a particular mark? Hahahahah! Too bad, breed to a low statter (hope you get that marking!) and work your ass off for 5 months, hunting 15 hours a day again, hope your breed works out next time.

Just... keep that timeline in mind. Sure, a few people can hunt/patrol 24/7 because of their friends and connections, but those same people can completely circumvent this system by swapping breeds. ...which they already do, if you take a peek at the top lioness/king heritages.

Two: One thing or the other. Penalize either by reduction of stats or likelihood of miscarriage/stillbirth/lethality. Don't do both, or you're harming both markets in one fell swoop.

You have liked this post!

I honestly think it's a bit too late for any inbreeding suggestions. That and any inbreeding suggestions seem that they're going to punish newbies or people who don't want to breed outside of their own prides and that's okay! We really shouldn't be trying to make the game harder than it is.

And I'll openly admit, I never understood this obsession with regulating the stat market. I assumed everyone would be okay with it after the last stat nerf. I think the market just should be left alone. Especially looking at the features that we currently have (fertility, nesting and broodmothers) that were supposed to help the cub market and ended up not helping it at all. Just leave the markets alone.

You have liked this post!

I'm on the fence about this one, maybe it's nostalgia for the old days when we actually had to either inbreed or claim/create new lionesses, but I do like the idea of some sort of inbreeding mechanics, perhaps ones that with a more balanced gain-to-loss ratio. Though based on the back and forth in the comments it seems the sole true purpose of this suggestion, rather than to add another interesting flare of challenge, is to alter the stat system, so I'll throw in my two cents on that.

I do want to say that the whole stats argument is kind of silly to me though, I'm an amateur stat breeder myself but I don't think people should deny potential game mechanics based purely on the fact that they would make the game more difficult for a specific group(Unless of course it was to a degree of unbalancing the game). Of course if people are making the observation from an unbiased position that's one thing, but many of the comments I read were more personal, commenting specifically on how it would make their personal gaming strategies more difficult in particular. I really don't think that personal gain/self interest should get in the way of the interests of the game as a whole. Yes, you(general) are a potential paying customer so your personal experience matters, but you must always consider that were trying to make the game the best it can be for everyone, so we shouldn't just think of how implements will effect us specifically, but rather use that personal understanding of how it effects us to map out how it will effect all people.


HOWEVER I am also of the opinion that stats really don't have a reason to be regulated any more than they are. And sure, there really isn't much regulation on them as they are, but I don't see anything wrong with that. The so-called(and reasonably so) "stat-monsters" are outliers. A few people who put an admirable way too much effort into the game reap the rewards for doing so. Sure, this could potentially be a problem, but I don't think the outliers are so unreasonably over powered that they're game breaking. It doesn't seem, at least as I've seen thus far, that the rather great wealth of a few individuals is actually putting any stress of gameplay.

You have liked this post!

Well, not that I'm well rested and focused, I can try and address the post as a whole.

I want to start by pointing out that Lioden is, first and foremost, a breeding simulator, and as such, I think it would be interesting to add some kind of inbreeding mechanics because many people - including myself - have agreed that, while inbreeding if done carefully can be a good way of introducing, spreading and keeping the desired traits of whatever animal you are breeding, it can also lead to negative effects if done extensively or if the trait in question is closely related to another that isn't healthy in a genetic level - for example, in domestic cats, deafness is closely related to the white coat and blue, yellow and green irises, although the chances of a white cat being deaf are much greater for those blue-eyed. The thing is, with every time you breed an animal that is so related to another, you increase the chance for the recesive, negative or positive traits those two share because they're so close genetically come forth in the next generation. And it is way easier for those traits to be negative than positive. And in real life it is normal for the teens of the larger prides to be chased away by their mothers, aunts and fathers, which helps disperse their gene pool when the females accept a male as theirs and the males woo other females. It is a fact that the breeding programs of lions in captivity have a lot of trouble, because those lions are related to one another.

In Lioden, genetics only influence the color group, shade, gradient and rarity of the base coat a lion will have, taking those from either parent at random, or unlocking a new shade group in the case of light x dark breedings, which is medium. Mutations are, instead, a random thing that can either be influenced by special items, the fertility of the mother or, with certain mutations, through Mutation on Demand Applicators or one of the parents having that mutation. The inbreeding mechanic is not meant to change that, I just wanted to add a bit more realism to the game, while keeping it within the limits the admins have established, and offer a possible solution to the high stat breeding problem many players seem to have and motivate players to trade between each other all in one, by adding a cumulative penalty of sorts for the stats the more inbreed cubs inherite, spontaneous infertility on both sexes and increasing the chance for the lionesses to have a lethal mutation. It was meant to add a more complex depth to the game, and while brainstorming with other players, we didn't see any problems with the initial idea.

Now, as many of you have pointed out, this would take a long time to truly impact the high stated studs, there could be possible ways of "getting around" if those studs' owners allied among themselves and the issue would go on still. As I said before, short of those players retiring them, leaving Lioden, or the admins doing something manually to those lions - making them infertile, lowering their stats - there is really nothing I can think of that we can do about it. We can try and think for ways to prevent it in the future so the other stat breeders have a fair chance, but those lions are already there - as many others pointed out, thanks to a lot of effort and resources. It'd be wrong of me, I think, to try and take that away just because it bothers me. But I can try and think of ways to prevent it from ever happening again with the birth of another so called stat monster. I'd like to point out, however, that those studs that are currently on the Leaderboard for highest stats are all related to either Keyser Soze, HOT HOT TATER TOT, the SAVANNAH PRINCE, more than one of those or all of them, among others. It'd take a lot of planning, effort and time for those studs' offspring to produce a viable cubs, and I believe it would eventually reach a point when it'd be simply not worth it to continue with that tactic and they would need to search for fresh blood, if they want to keep on with those studs' offspring. In the article Nicholas has been so kind to share, it's stated that "High levels of inbreeding can result in reduced genetic variation, low reproductive performance and increased cub mortality, as well as reduced immune competence[...]", and that's exactly what I want to introduce to Lioden: the reduced genetic variation is a given and we already have it if you squint, the low reproductive performance would be the spontaneous infertile cubs, and the increased cub mortality would be introduced by the cumulative increased chance of miscarriage. Be this or another, I firmly think that the stats thing, for all that it's useful on Lioden, need to be regulared somehow. The abyss between the highest stat lions and the next high stated lions is too great, and I think something needs to be done to make the market fairer for everyone.

Now, on to the "harming newbies and casual players" thing. This was planned in a way that inbreeding would not matter much the first times you do it. Humanity has a long history of breeding dogs from the same litter or other when that very litter has shown certain characteristics they're interested in - which causes, if you think of it, the health problems many dog breeds are associated to, like cancer, bone problems and such -, and want to preserve and spread in the future. Why would I want to take this from Lioden? This would require just a little bit more of planning, and for players to weight the pros and cons of inbreeding, and they could choose to totally disregard the cons and inbreed anyway, avoid it completely, or do a bit of both to get the traits they want and keep they pride "healthy", in the sense that the negative effects would be minimal. There has already been a player who asked for the inbreeding to only matter if the relations are closer between the parents, and another that proposed a three strike system of sorts, where the parents would need to share three relatives for the penalties to begin to take effect instead. It could also be possible for the three strike system to work as follows: once a particular lion has appeared on the full ancestry of a lion, from that point onwards the lion will not stack in the cumulative system, affecting as if it only appeared three times from then on.

The increased lethal mutation seems to be a fifty-fifty thing, in the sense that there's people totally on board and people totally agains it. To keep loyal to the reality of inbreeding but keeping the lethal mutations rare, how about introducing a new mutation, exclusive to the inbreeding mechanic? A weaker-looking infertile lion, unable to hunt, patrol or be king, that would depend exclusively on your attention and care to survive? It'd be up to you if you want to have them cluttering your space, sell them, send them to the reserve or kill them.

Now, it's been repeatedly stated that the increased miscarriage thing would be bad for those who spend a lot of time planning for a stud breeding, spend a lot of currency and/or items on it, only for the whole litter to be stillborn - To aswer to the one who said it'd be cruel: that's a very usual occurrence with the animals that have multiple cub litters, for one or two of the cubs to be born dead; it's awful? Yes, but it's part of life - I thought about it long and hard, because you have a point there. I'd like to either the Grain of Paradaise or Buffalo Scrotum to ensure those 2 or 3 cubs are born healthy, but that'd increase their price to the point of insanity and would make this feature moot. Perhaps a brand new item, that ensures at least 1 cub surviving? It'd need to be outlined its rarity, and the way we can obtain it.

And really, I'm replying for the sake of debating, not to make you see it my way. It's amazing what others come up with that I don't, and what problems we can see together. I think I got everything this time, but feel free to point out what I've missed. I try to read every reply carefully and I even wrote a diagram to myself for all the issues you're pointing out, but I may have missed something. The mount of info here is huge.

You have liked this post!

Support!
It would also be helpful if a little textbox popped up when breeding a lioness to a stud that said something like 'This lion is related to your lioness by (number) generations'.
I try my hardest not to inbreed to keep the lines pure, but sometimes I don't have time to go through every lioness and lions heritage.
I think it should only be considered inbreeding if the lions are directly related within five generations

You have liked this post!

@Brighty

Thank you for your input! I'll make sure to add the bit about inbreeding to the Head Post as another possible alternative.

You have liked this post!

I've added what I think highlights the general feel of the previous replies to the Head Post, with a link to the original post in each of them.

@Heda RedBox, I'd really like to post something of yours, but I couldn't take just the important bits because it lost all context I'm sorry.

You have liked this post!

I don't think i can get behind this? yes there's the ever present argument that lioden is supposed to be realistic, but adding that kind of mechanic honestly seems like it would just drive people away. outsourcing studs would help other people but there's the point that a lot of people breed/fix up their kings because the want their cubs to take after him. there's already a fuckton of different factors that can affect probablility of a mution of verying degrees to pop up; this seems like overkill and a pain in the ass for people who, yes, are playing lioden for fun. saying this site isn't made to be fun is an obtuse statement to me. there are so many people who play literally just for fun and to complicate things further with an inbreeding mechanic just doesn't seem like it would be beneficial in any way.

You have liked this post!

It's a wholly interesting mechanic!! i dont mean to take the piss honestly i just don't think it would really do much besides frustrate a lot of people?

You have liked this post!

I think you put a lot of thought into this, and it poses a very true and helpful reality on thing. I would agree but not only do I think it would be possible too much for the coders to do, that you're asking too much from one idea.

What I mean by this, is that by adding a negative effect to inbreeding, your creating several other ideas just to support one. It all makes sense and intertwine's with each other but it doesn't close up loose ends, only creates more.

Don't get me wrong, it would make the game possible better, but it could also go in the other direction. So I'm probably not going to support, although I'm not hitting the other button.

I do like the idea, though.

You have liked this post!