Posted by AHOCB II: Styles, Counter & Spread

JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2021-05-01 16:58:35
First chapter here!

Picking up from where we left off in Chapter One, with the rise of the Clean movement came the rise of the dirty movement. If there was ever said to be a Lioden specific group of reactionaries, dirty breeders were definitely that bunch. As far as I know, the name was self-coined; the logical conclusion that ‘if they (meaning us) were “clean” then the rest of us (meaning them) must be “dirty”.’

However, aside from verbal spats, there was little dirty breeders could actually do to stop clean breeding from spreading. And in response to this unprovoked ire, many clean breeders began restrictive breeding. In 2017 and 2018, it was common to see Clean Breeder stud rules that said “I will not breed inbred lions” and/or “I will not breed relatives of my king”. Obviously, this didn’t help relations.

CLFL’s founding would be followed by the creation of DD, or “Dirty Daddies” (now defunct: clan thread here). Dirty Daddies was the dirty breeder hub, which quickly eclipsed CLFL in numbers, and really brought the term “dirty” into common LD parlance. The stated goal of the clan was to create lions that were inbred and to breed without restrictions. However, this came under scrutiny from Clean breeding clans and circles, of which there were several at this time. Breeding without restrictions, after all, was simply the standard lioden breeding in 2017-2018. Despite the term “dirty” being seemingly embraced onsite, it was still considered considering pejorative to many non-clean breeders. And so I introduced the term “Standard Breeder” in order to assuage those concerns.

But like the term “New”, Standard Breeder did not stand the test of time.

Things were also heating up within the Clean circles among fellow clean breeders. Slowly, clean breeding began to have a noticeable affect on the market. Clean lions, particularly muties, were increasingly considered more valuable. And dirty lions that were otherwise identical were chosen last on the TC and in forums. In many cases, they were not chosen at all. Clean breeding was no longer just a challenge or for fun. Now, it had profit consequences, and many standard breeders felt pressured to join the playstyle in order to compete in the market.

Others tried to compete by riffing on the rules. Though rare now, one would occasionally see lions advertised as “Semi-Clean” or “Clean on the first page”. However, these styles would be largely dismissed by the clean community as a whole and those pushing them would be accused, and often reported, as scammers. However, since clean breeding was a player made style, nothing was truly enforceable by staff.

Although several staff members had taken up clean breeding, the first time it was acknowledged in any official capacity was the introduction of the inbreeding counter in 2018. According to my triangulating, it was somewhere around (or more likely on, since it’s a friday) May 25th, but whenever it happened, clean breeding was not only more or less broadcast to the community at large but now everyone was keenly aware at all times whether or not their lions were inbred should they check the lineage whether they played the style or not. However, at introduction, there wasn’t even a stir and the ramifications of it all wouldn’t be clear until much later. It is worth noting that, from comments made on the thread by both players and admins, that the inbreeding counter might’ve been bugged at introduction.

Months later, in September 2018 on the 20th, that heritage bug was fixed and in another universe, that wouldn’t have mattered. After all, a lion’s heritage has no bearing on it’s function. However, with heritage repping being a standard part of the very popular clean breeding style and arguably the most expensive part, the discovery of Big 4 names showing up in lineages otherwise verified as being clean prompted an outrage and the Clean Breeder movement called PUTP. PUTP, started by user Louse, stood for Picking Up The Pieces and was a community movement where Clean Breeders came together to help fellow clean breeders who had been adversely affected by the bug by offering free studding, muties, and even assisting with repping costs. The thread can still be seen, here. After being contacted by many concerned users, Staff made an official comment about the update.

These two events, PUTP and the Counter, were most likely what gave rise to the inbreeding focus in Clean Breeding. Big 4, while still in the car, was no longer in the driver’s seat and became second to having a non-inbred lion (termed Pure Bred, Squeaky Clean, Double Clean, or simply Clean). The PUTP business, and a simple desire for efficiency, is the reason things like Low Gen and No Gen/Heritageless became so popular. A short heritage from rolled or groupie lions meant glitches would have no impact + were not a pain to search through. Also, while Clean Breeders were trying to right themselves from the update, some dirty breeders took it upon themselves to laugh and jeer at us (but some did help!). This deepened and worsened the tension between dirty and clean breeders.

But as the months march on, and Clean Breeding became increasingly conflated with which player’s lions were selling and which ones were not, several primary or secondarily clean breeding clans would arise. The Dirty Breeder stronghold, Dirty Daddies, would become inactive and later invalid.

Next Chapter: Contemporary Clean Breeding - Lioden and Wolvden



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Edited on 01/05/21 @ 16:59:51 by Jaxdaw|[Maziwa RL Dopp|CLEAN] (#98288)

DawnStar (#166818)

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Posted on
2021-05-01 19:41:46
Seriously for me I did not give a dang, but then I saw the market value for cleans... While I think some are over priced and I still sell the same rates as I think they are worth they get bought fast... and I always thought big 4 was the problem until I saw clean from inbreeding... I did the cubs will be clean on first PG. Not because I was trying to scam but more because the inbreeding wouldn't show up for them...



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JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2021-05-01 19:45:28
Lots of clean breeders see any attempt to hide inbreeding as an attempt to scam.



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DawnStar (#166818)

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Posted on
2021-05-05 01:13:42
Yeah well when iI started there wasn't clear cut, and I wasn't going for squeaky at the time... I was only really into breeding no big four, and I really had no idea the rules, but once I did know more of the whole picture (thanks to this clan and threads) I changed my adverts to clean big 4 wise but not inbreeding, until my king got squeaky clean...



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Nyxtrix (#356785)

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Posted on
2022-11-06 22:50:58
As a newer player, this was an amazing read and incredibly satisfying to have it all in one place and straight from the source so to speak. Looking forward to the next part, whenever it comes.



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DawnStar (#166818)

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Posted on
2022-11-30 23:28:08
You need a new chapter. They are trying to put Skyrim, Beauregard, and ysdarr on the Unclean list. I had a baby that was born perfectly clean by the standards that have been set for years. then I find out the person I sold him to puts him as unclean because of ysdarr. I get why he is in a lot of lines. However he is also Alive. so why unclean an alive lion? (He is on a mostly frozen account but still) Anyways it is damaging markets. and its killing me and a few of my friends business. Now if you don't have a high stat low gen lion your screwed. My lion is related to my original king as I wanted the line to live on. but that means the line is long and his cubs are longer.

I am not against it but it needs to change. (I am a clean breeder) I just don't need lions added when I already have to worry about the big four. its killing my breeding prospects as well...



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JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2022-12-05 21:26:25
Well...

See, the thing is Clean Breeding started off as my personal project but it's grown beyond my control. Idk about Skyrim and Ysdarr, but i know there are Meta reasons why Beauregard is there. It's more to do with the Owner of the Lion more than their actual Bloodline spread.

Clean Breeding is five years old, going on six. It's unrealistic to expect the rules to still be the same. No one can control the market or how people act within it. Find a way to adapt or else I don't know what to tell you.



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🗡️ LunarKnight
[Project King] (#151072)


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Posted on
2023-03-04 09:08:51
I think even a clean stud can be put on the "avoid breeding to" list for some clean breeders. 1,000 cubs can quickly turn into 10,000+ cubs related to the stud from their direct cubs. The higher the stats, the more likely the cub will be kinged at some point. The more cubs alive that are related to the stud, the easier it is to accidentally inbred if you don't pay attention to heritage. That's how I see it at least.

Ysdaar currently has 1,505 cubs. 670 of those are male. How many of those males do you think have either been kinged or will be kinged? Since cubs and stud slots are mainly how folks get a lot of their currency he's going to have a ton of grand-cubs and so on.



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DawnStar (#166818)

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Posted on
2023-03-04 11:19:07
It's insane. I know it's out of the control of anyone. I think the dirty breeders need to lead a revolt to get this back to normal🤣

It also sucks cuz of how many players are active so the gene pool doesn't open up like it should. Anyways I send most of my newbies here to read this. Basically to get the history. It's a really good read for how and why this thing came to be



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🗡️ LunarKnight
[Project King] (#151072)


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Posted on
2023-03-04 11:52:52
A revolt would be interesting. Honestly I see nothing wrong with dirty breeding. It's not like these are real life lions. I think value shouldn't depend on if a cub is dirty or not. A gem is a gem right?

I took a sudden unplanned hiatus back in '19 and just returned late January this year. Just discovered this clean breeding history series and it's packed with a lot of good info. I hope they make more chapters!



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DawnStar (#166818)

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Posted on
2023-03-04 14:28:35
It would be. It's a contract we humans made and now we live with it. I only joined it because of the fact I couldn't sell anything... at all... but the tides are changing. Slowly...

I actually returned for good in 21 pretty much, but I had a hiatus in 2019 as well myself. But only for a year.




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JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2023-03-04 15:58:58
Dirty breeders tried to revolt once. It did absolutely nothing and they were the laughing stock of the website.

It was a clan called "Dirty Daddies". You haven't heard of it for a reason.



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🗡️ LunarKnight
[Project King] (#151072)


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Posted on
2023-03-04 16:22:08
@DawnStar
I joined the clean breeders side for similar reasons. Well that and I wanted there to be clean heavy pies for those who frown against inbreeding. Got my clean heavy pie before my hiatus but now I got years worth of clan fees to pay before I can revive operation heavy pie.

Ah ok. Coming back was/is a big adjustment for me after being gone 3-4 years. So much new stuff ontop of trying to remember the older stuff.


@Jaxdaw
Sometime after I started playing I actually joined dirty daddies. This account was originally my dirty pride and my side was clean. Lol. However I didn't know they tried to revolt. No wonder I can't find the clan. I had wanted to see if it was still around. There's newer dirty clans but only 1 isn't expired.



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JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2023-03-05 23:29:55
Typically, when you make a "Counter" movement to something it tends to die out.



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🗡️ LunarKnight
[Project King] (#151072)


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Posted on
2023-03-05 23:54:34
You make a good point. I still see folks in chat debating about clean and dirty but that's about it really.



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Wolvesofthenight (#101070)

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Posted on
2023-03-07 14:14:24
I'm in a clan called getting down and dirty now🤣

I'm completely clean except for this side project I have currently. I can debate all day. But it comes down to is that we made our bed and the new players that are coming in are making the old ways a heck of a lot stricter.

I could get new players to side with dirty. But that'd make me a hypocrite because I am side clean technically. But I got three newbies who are just like we don't care about it after sending them here to read this. So some new bloods decided to go away from the grain. But the majority stick to clean that come through with me.



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