Posted by AHOCB II: Styles, Counter & Spread

JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2021-05-01 16:58:35
First chapter here!

Picking up from where we left off in Chapter One, with the rise of the Clean movement came the rise of the dirty movement. If there was ever said to be a Lioden specific group of reactionaries, dirty breeders were definitely that bunch. As far as I know, the name was self-coined; the logical conclusion that ‘if they (meaning us) were “clean” then the rest of us (meaning them) must be “dirty”.’

However, aside from verbal spats, there was little dirty breeders could actually do to stop clean breeding from spreading. And in response to this unprovoked ire, many clean breeders began restrictive breeding. In 2017 and 2018, it was common to see Clean Breeder stud rules that said “I will not breed inbred lions” and/or “I will not breed relatives of my king”. Obviously, this didn’t help relations.

CLFL’s founding would be followed by the creation of DD, or “Dirty Daddies” (now defunct: clan thread here). Dirty Daddies was the dirty breeder hub, which quickly eclipsed CLFL in numbers, and really brought the term “dirty” into common LD parlance. The stated goal of the clan was to create lions that were inbred and to breed without restrictions. However, this came under scrutiny from Clean breeding clans and circles, of which there were several at this time. Breeding without restrictions, after all, was simply the standard lioden breeding in 2017-2018. Despite the term “dirty” being seemingly embraced onsite, it was still considered considering pejorative to many non-clean breeders. And so I introduced the term “Standard Breeder” in order to assuage those concerns.

But like the term “New”, Standard Breeder did not stand the test of time.

Things were also heating up within the Clean circles among fellow clean breeders. Slowly, clean breeding began to have a noticeable affect on the market. Clean lions, particularly muties, were increasingly considered more valuable. And dirty lions that were otherwise identical were chosen last on the TC and in forums. In many cases, they were not chosen at all. Clean breeding was no longer just a challenge or for fun. Now, it had profit consequences, and many standard breeders felt pressured to join the playstyle in order to compete in the market.

Others tried to compete by riffing on the rules. Though rare now, one would occasionally see lions advertised as “Semi-Clean” or “Clean on the first page”. However, these styles would be largely dismissed by the clean community as a whole and those pushing them would be accused, and often reported, as scammers. However, since clean breeding was a player made style, nothing was truly enforceable by staff.

Although several staff members had taken up clean breeding, the first time it was acknowledged in any official capacity was the introduction of the inbreeding counter in 2018. According to my triangulating, it was somewhere around (or more likely on, since it’s a friday) May 25th, but whenever it happened, clean breeding was not only more or less broadcast to the community at large but now everyone was keenly aware at all times whether or not their lions were inbred should they check the lineage whether they played the style or not. However, at introduction, there wasn’t even a stir and the ramifications of it all wouldn’t be clear until much later. It is worth noting that, from comments made on the thread by both players and admins, that the inbreeding counter might’ve been bugged at introduction.

Months later, in September 2018 on the 20th, that heritage bug was fixed and in another universe, that wouldn’t have mattered. After all, a lion’s heritage has no bearing on it’s function. However, with heritage repping being a standard part of the very popular clean breeding style and arguably the most expensive part, the discovery of Big 4 names showing up in lineages otherwise verified as being clean prompted an outrage and the Clean Breeder movement called PUTP. PUTP, started by user Louse, stood for Picking Up The Pieces and was a community movement where Clean Breeders came together to help fellow clean breeders who had been adversely affected by the bug by offering free studding, muties, and even assisting with repping costs. The thread can still be seen, here. After being contacted by many concerned users, Staff made an official comment about the update.

These two events, PUTP and the Counter, were most likely what gave rise to the inbreeding focus in Clean Breeding. Big 4, while still in the car, was no longer in the driver’s seat and became second to having a non-inbred lion (termed Pure Bred, Squeaky Clean, Double Clean, or simply Clean). The PUTP business, and a simple desire for efficiency, is the reason things like Low Gen and No Gen/Heritageless became so popular. A short heritage from rolled or groupie lions meant glitches would have no impact + were not a pain to search through. Also, while Clean Breeders were trying to right themselves from the update, some dirty breeders took it upon themselves to laugh and jeer at us (but some did help!). This deepened and worsened the tension between dirty and clean breeders.

But as the months march on, and Clean Breeding became increasingly conflated with which player’s lions were selling and which ones were not, several primary or secondarily clean breeding clans would arise. The Dirty Breeder stronghold, Dirty Daddies, would become inactive and later invalid.

Next Chapter: Contemporary Clean Breeding - Lioden and Wolvden



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Edit Post

Edited on 01/05/21 @ 16:59:51 by Jaxdaw|[Maziwa RL Dopp|CLEAN] (#98288)

JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2023-03-09 19:41:27
Dirty daddies 2.0. My prediction is just like the first time, it won't last ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



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🗡️ LunarKnight
[Project King] (#151072)


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Posted on
2023-03-09 19:56:34
If the cost of a lion was the same regardless of duty or clean I'm sure they'd be more happy. Until then there's always going to be those who feel annoyed by clean breeders.

I feel like Riot by Three Days Grace would be a good theme song for them. Lol.



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JAX • 3.12.21
9/15 | 13/15 BO (#98288)

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Posted on
2023-03-09 20:34:56
Yeah, that was always the rub, but ultimately you can't choose how or why people price their lions the way they do. For the record, it was never about money to me. I just wanted a fresh bloodline, the rest of the site decided to monetize that and the rest is history.



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🗡️ LunarKnight
[Project King] (#151072)


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Posted on
2023-03-09 21:56:36
I was the same with my side. A fresh bloodline to work with and for this pride origionally have it be free range so to speak. Then I eventually noticed my clean cubs sold better than the dirty ones. About that time the first clean havy pie was MoD'd so I made both clean since my side king wasn't old enough to retire yet and I really liked his mutation. Folks will always find a way to get more money out of something. I can't believe some folks will reject inbred lions not even related to their stud. It's not like they have cooties or something. Lol.



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AimPyre | G2
Jellyfish Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-16 08:54:04
(In response to the 'revolt' as Lunar King mentioned a little bit, and Wolvesofthenight mentioning kinda being in between + new members)

I was actually just discussing the other day how I find the market divide (mentioned in this post) between clean and dirty suddenly way more extreme than it was back before I came back from hiatus. Now, standard/unclean lions seem to hardly sell- even really valuable lions like hybrids.

I have nothing against the clean play style- it's like hard mode for me, or like a nuzlocke from Pokemon, I'm happy to try it but that's not gonna be my permanent playstyle. I don't want to 'rebel' against clean like dirty breeders tried to (though, nothing against dirty breeders either- not to mention the "moral outrage" I've seen people talking about of relatively new players going into cleanbreeding but then being unapologetically rude to dirty breeders. My point is, both sides have their flaws as many things like this tend to do, so both are fine for me in general)

But I do find it frustrating that anything NOT following the current market's requirements for clean (not just 'no incest' but also typically requiring low generation, no big 4 of course but also some new names mentioned earlier in this thread, etc) just. Won't sell well. Even if bred clean for the past 5 generations, if they started off dirty (or have a generation list any longer than 8 I've noticed), they won't sell as clean. Definitely puts a dent for lore writers wanting to keep bloodlines around.

After a talk with some friends in my Discord + a thread asking about why clean lions were suddenly more important than they used to be (which, I understand, some people like to work their way up using clean only), we came up with a way to pretty unintrusively cut down on the big divide on the market, without trying to be a 'revolt' or disrupt the existing definitions. It's actually pretty much a comeback to our old playstyle that most of us followed before clean and dirty were super major concepts, and apparently used to be called 'semi-clean'. We call these lions Bred-Clean (or BC on the TC, though you'll only find a couple, it's a very new clan/name) and using the abbreviation hopes to avoid the upset at the "semi-clean" crowd. Which, I feel if called "semi-clean" it already implies they're not truly clean and it should be looked into for strict clean breeders, but either way ^^ Bred-Clean emphasizes lions that are clean on the first page of their heritage, or breeding pretty/mutated/big-stat/etc lions from dirty lions by breeding clean until they, again, are clean on the first page.

Not meant to be a huge thing or a revolt or anything- it's just literally how many older players have played for years, just pretty standard practice that many didn't even give a name to at the time, and given the current major market divide, this gives place to those who don't want to deal with the stress of shelling out more money + investigating every line for squeaky clean lions, but aren't really down to label themselves dirty breeders either.

I hope this message wasn't intrusive!!! I just feel like it relates to both the comments and the lore above!!! An important reminder that breeders of BC lions as a general whole have nothing against clean breeders (I totally understand the desire for a challenge, and how that would make the game more fun for some people) or dirty breeders (I understand a full clean pride can be frustrating to obtain and make the game less fun for some people as well)

I guess we're standard breeders almost? Maybe a little cleaner.



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Edited on 16/03/23 @ 08:56:22 by AimPyre {Ask Me About Melon} (#98461)

Saffron (#440906)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2023-06-16 19:27:39
What a fascinating jaunt! Thank you for the history. I think it's funny that mutations are so prized, and inbreeding pooh-pooh'd, when more mutations result from inbreeding as a matter of course. And we're feeding them GMOs all while immortalizing cubs in a state of endless suffering. God help us all! I love both aspects, clean and dirty. I think the lore possibilities are interesting since real lions (and male wolves) don't exactly hold themselves back, but I'm not about to get all GRRM about it, lol.



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Crisis ( Scoundrel ) (#169879)

Aztec Knight
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Posted on
2023-09-21 16:55:59
I joined lioden back in the beggining of 2019, and I actively played until the scoundrel base came up and I retired my second king sooner to put my actual king (since then I have been on a big hiatus, I just returned lol).

One of the first things I learned about when I joined was clean and dirty lions and since then I have participated on it at my own style (having both types, breeding both types but not mixing them), but I didn't know that there was so much lore about it.

It was nice to know!



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