I whole heartedly agree with raven that more intersex people should have a say. I like to consider myself well educated on intersex matters, but take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I am not intersex.

Humans and animals often have intersex babies, and in humans intersex people are about as common as red haired people. I think it would make a lot of sense to have representation, seeing as it's a normal occurrence and so many people try pretend it doesn't exist. I agree sex changing should be 100% not allowed due to the problematic procedures non-consenting intersex minors go through irl.

Intersex lions would not be able to breed. While some intersex people might have one set of genitals that functions in the sense of reproduction, I think it would make the most sense to keep intersex lions infertile to disable exploitation. I don't think they should fall under the male or female category, and should have a separate one all for themselves, because irl many intersex people are forced to conform to one gender.

It would be a nice idea for intersex lions to be able to be kinged, but they would have to function like some other mutations in game such as leopon and tigon males in where they won't be able to breed and would be considered a luxury king.

Intersex lions experiencing perks of both genders instead of being slotted into one makes the most sense to me.

My final say is: I understand how calling anyone a genetic mutation can be harmful, especially because of real life context of it being an insult. I think it's important we listen to intersex people on their opinions for this. My personal take is everything in humans is a genetic mutation. There should no such thing as a "normal" human seeing how we all evolved from something very much not human. Different hair and eye colors are mutations. Different heights and bodies and weights are technically mutations. I personally am all for more representation of every type of mutations in animals and humans, because deep down we are all different and all deserve to be seen.

I hope my take is helpful, once again take it with a grain of salt as I am not intersex!

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I'm intersex and my biggest problem with this suggestion is that there are many ways to be intersex.

Sex is a spectrum just as gender is and there are a range of external, internal, AND hormonal conditions. While I do think it would be cool to see, I don't think there's a practical way of doing this at the moment that doesn't alienate or further push the narrative that intersex people are simply those born with both genitalia.

No support, sorry.

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@127267
Hmm yeah, that makes sense. I suppose we could just make any lion intersex in our lore anyways since it usually isn't even visible, and use a maned lioness if we wanted some visual indicator... I still think it is a cool idea but it would have to be handled very carefully. :(

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@94400 - I agree and I think it would be cool! Unfortunately I don't believe there's a way to implement it without being insensitive or excluding someone.

Intersex conditions are very nuanced and complex. The post also implies all intersex individuals would look the same, but in reality that's just not true.

To address specific points: "You examine the cub, unsure of their gender. Huh."
Gender and sex are not the same thing, and on top of this there are a fair number of intersex conditions that are not obvious upon birth. As someone with a condition that did not show up until after puberty, this kind of implies we don't exist.

"Intersex lionesses CANNOT breed and will act as an infertile lioness."
While I am likely infertile as a result of my own condition, not every intersex individual will be.


Given the mods inactivity around such a subject as well, I don't believe it would be a good idea.

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Sorry, just realised this and wanted to make a new post about it.

We already have an intersex mutation, double uterus. Intersex is, again, an umbrella term for a spectrum of conditions.

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Any of the maned lioness mutations are also intersex. In real life, a lioness will only grow a mane if she has increased level of testosterone. I agree with Cyn; no support.

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" intersex lions are sterile and cannot reproduce "
Someone can easily circumvent this by using chasteberries.

Anyways, support, this could easily be used as a lion who could do both patrolling and hunting.

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So, I don’t hate this idea, but I have a note. (For what it’s worth, I am not intersex). I know, like a few other people have noted, that maned lionesses are considered intersex, and for that reason, I think the “intersex” mutation would need to be called something more specific than intersex. There’s many different intersex conditions, some of which we already have in Lioden. In animals, intersex individuals are often just referred to as “hermaphrodites”, but knowing the harmful impact that word has historically had on intersex people, I don’t think it’s a good idea to use it in Lioden. I propose two alternative names: Androgen Insensitivity (a condition that affects XY-chromosomed individuals that makes them resistant to developing male sex characteristics) and Klinefelter Syndrome (a condition where someone has XXY chromosomes and a mix of sexual characteristics).

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ravenpaw🩷🩵🤍 (#177719) - Please don't call it intersexism.

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For more context, "Intersexism" refers to the the discrimination of intersex people.

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My bad! Thank you so much for the note. I’ve edited my post.

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If intersex lions are infertile, we could easily circumvent that with chasteberries, also, not every intersex case results in infertility, maybe some cases of the mut would make the lion able to breed with both kings and lionesses! (ofc, the lionesses can only be bred with them if they are kinged)

Maybe they could make different muts for each case of intersex? Like "intersex 1", "intersex 2", "intersex 3", "intersex 4", etc, etc.

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No support for the following reasons:
The birth message ""You examine the cub, unsure of their gender. Huh."" just, no. Gender and sex are two different things, you cannot determine the "gender" of someone at birth.
"This is where the mechanics come in. In place of the "gender" current will be an option to change your adolescent's role. "Sub-male" or "Lioness". In doing so, your adolescent can either go along on hunts or patrols. Roles can be changed at any time unless it is hunting, patrolling, up for trade/offer, or in a raffle.", also, just, no. the changing role thing is pretty picky imo. I think just stick to one.
"The mechanics of the role are the same as the adolescents. They can act as both female and male depending on their role. Intersex lionesses CANNOT breed and will act as an infertile lioness. Despite being infertile, intersex lionesses AND intersex sub-males can act as a broodmother/father. This WILL count towards broodmother amount.", I once again, disagree with this. Not all intersex people are infertile, "Intersex individuals, formerly known as hermaphrodites, have genetic, gonadal or anatomic characteristics that range from mostly male with some female features to the reverse. Some, but not all, intersex adults are infertile. The most obvious intersex diagnoses are made in infants born with ambiguous-looking genitalia." (Google) along with that it'd be easy to get around the "infertile" part.
"Kinging an intersex will get rid of the "role" mechanic, changing his gender to male permanently. Despite the role mechanic being gone, an intersex king will have the option to enable/disable the "broodfather" mechanic. This may/may not count towards the max amount of broodmothers." Just, no. Flat out no. "Broodfather" and a king? No. Lions can only have one roll in the pride, I think it's best to stay that way. Also, really? Kinging it would permenitly change it's sex? Sounds silly imo...

I think adding intersex lions would be a great thing in game, but I think the suggestion needs to be revised with more research. Most-to-all parents with intersex child chose the sex they will raise their child as. (example, my friend who's intersex was raised as a female, he identifies as a male at this current day.) I think letting the lion decide to raise their cub what sex they'd like would be a better idea. (The lioness as in the player).

I'm not intersex myself, but I know a few intersex people. I am only trans and queer, so take this lightly. I've researched a bit into intersex people and asked questions to my friends who are intersex.

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I'm also in an agreement with (#166009) on how mutations are referred too. I don't think calling it a "mutation" is very ideal. I sadly think people would romanticize it the same way they do with cleft palate lions in this game, I also don't like how clefties are refereed to as a mutation in game. Coming from someone with a cleft lip and palate

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These reasons are why I wanted to separate the different cases of intersex mut into many other muts, like they did for chimera in a game I play, like "intersex 1", "intersex 2", "intersex 3", "intersex 4", etc, etc.

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