Posted by Mutations And Criticism

O5-69 (#421623)

Total Chad
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Posted on
2023-08-09 17:36:24
Before we start on this, I am going to go over some things. Please let me know if I put this in the wrong area, I'm somewhat new to Posts.

1.) I am not saying Lioden is a terrible game. I love Lioden! It's my favorite Pet sim game. But, I am allowed to criticize it. I'm not accusing anyone of being ableist or a bad person, just my critique on how mutations are handled.

2.) I am disabled so please don't ask! A lot of people ask this when any person brings up that something is ableist. They immediately think "if you're not disabled you shouldn't be speaking", completely dismissing that the topic is ableist.

3.)If I sound passive agressive, I apologize. I'm just a bit frustrated with this and have been for awhile.

4.) Just because it doesn't apply to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter or isn't impactful. I'm also not demanding things to be change. But, I am criticizing it.
_________

Something I've noticed with mutations on here is how they're treated. Mutations are very cool and I love breeding and getting muties! Muties are so very cool and I'm happy that they exist.

However, when I look at some lions, especially lethal lions, I just can't help but to get frustrated.

You're telling me, that a game that has lions travel through space, have heaven & hell wars, have some form of religion, have the equivalent of doctors, have mythical creatures in game, battles with bugs, has currency, Rainbow and starry pelts, can wear decor, clothing, speak, have battle competitions, ALLOW SNOW, and multiple other things but can't take care of their disabled pride mates and family members?

Deaf lions can apparently die randomly. So, you're telling me with a game that has all that, that a deaf lion can't surrive because it's not "accurate to nature?" Or, "realistically, they would kill them."

There are literal dragons in game. There's a manticore in game. These lions have some form of human intelligence. And, you're telling me that disabled lions cannot live because it's "not realistic?"

Okay, using that logic then remove nearly all of the events. That's not realistic. Remove every bright, unnatural, unrealistic, and fun bases. That's not realistic. Remove the primals. That's not realistic.

My next frustration with Lioden lethals is the conjoined twins. Again, these lions have doctors (shamans), language, and overall human intelligence, so why do they have to die? There's real people who are conjoined twins, living their lives. Yet, a lion game with mythical creatures, and all that can't allow them to live either?

The only disabled lions and lions with visual differences that get to exist are ones that are pretty, look cool, or are useful. And, it's so upsetting.

Very curious to see and hear what other people think.
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Edit: Someone mentioned that there wasn't a suggestion and I completely forgot so here are some suggestions to fix this.

1.) Not making it expensive to freeze your lions. That would be great! Or, removing the death feature and keeping them as is. I don't really understand why such a death factor exists if this is a pet sim. Again, ignoring "realism" considering there are dragons, space travel, ETC. Why have lions if they're gonna die. That doesn't make the game fun. It makes them incredibly sad. Using disabled death isn't fun, and using disabled death for weight isn't really great either.

2.) Not using lethal mutations just for death. Some mutations are understandable, and I'm not disagreeing with it. But, some like cleft palate, conjoined twins, and other disabilities that are survivable (again, ignoring realism, this is not a realistic game) shouldn't be lethal.

Why not have a chance rate of death rather them 100% dying. Maybe have tools to help them grow, have disability aids (ex. A walking stick for the blind lions, could be a collar or smth. A buddy for deaf lions). And, the only reason they would 100% would die is due to neglect. Such as neglecting food, support, and a similar message pops up for rollovers.



This suggestion has 30 supports and 67 NO supports.



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Edited on 10/08/23 @ 11:04:00 by O5-69 (#421623)

Readytest (#431796)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2023-08-09 18:50:08
Support, as an autistic person, I don't even see why Blind/eyeless, clawless, or even deaf lions can't be kinged, even after a period of time! It confuses me because at a certain time they'd be well adapted to their surroundings and environment. At least let them do cub training, struggle within their life, but be able to be kinged.

I sometimes wish for an item in LD and WD that could allow lethal muts to survive. I'm also planning on making custom decors for adult versions of the mutations until such item exists.



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peepy (#48100)

Savage
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Posted on
2023-08-09 19:30:44
When I started playing in 2014, the game was more realistic. We didn't have flashy green lions, we didn't have primals, we didn't even have the same June or July events and all the whacky mysticism they currently entail. The tone has shifted drastically over the past 10 years, leaving the old stuff sticking out like a sore thumb. Lethal mutations were originally implemented as a sort of crowd control, of all things. The efficacity of which is up to interpetation. Though if you ask me, the Deaf mutation is the only one that shouldn't be lethal.
FTR, I am disabled and autistic as well. Just thought I'd offer that backgrounder since you're pretty new.



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O5-69 (#421623)

Total Chad
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Posted on
2023-08-09 20:51:02
I'm also autistic with ADHD, along with other disabilities. I think if this has been an occuring thing and hasn't been adjusted as time went on that's concerning. And, using disabled lions as crowd control is... wildly messed up! Respectfully, I do not know how you don't see that as a very concerning thing and I'm glad they moved on from that.

Often or not, I only see this type of ableism with the physically disabled. Or, those with visual differences. As an auHD person, if autistic or ADHD lions were added to the game and treated the same way lethals are, everyone would be in uproar and rightfully so. Autistic lions being killed for realism would be absloutely horrible. So, why is it that some lethal lions are killed off for this realism factor? When in a setting as lioden is in now, would be perfectly fine.

Again, even if the old content sticks out. It's still concerning that it's applies today. No body's disability should be used as hardship or death while everything else is just peachy and perfect. Even with the few realistic events we have today, there is always some sort of fantasy tied into it.

There's a lot of ableism surrounding Lioden and lethals. And, mutations in general, people naming them horrible names like "Freaks" and such. An example I remember clearly is an deaf person talking about deaf lions dying and people responding along the lines of: "Deaf lions die bc they're deaf and in the wild." Which translates to: "We're okay with deaf lions dying for realism." Which was wildly wrong!

I just don't think lions with disabilities should be used for this "realism (death)" factor. Because there's people who have the conditions or disabilities as lethals. And, it still affects people. Especially how the game now is mythical and has everything it has now. I think things should change with time, not stay the same no matter how old it is.



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Luxaeus [hiatus] (#78363)


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Posted on
2023-08-09 21:54:10
honestly, i see both sides of the argument. I will say that I don't think Lioden will change this. It would be unfair to those that have spent jellyfishes and frozen slots for these lethals.
I know the game is realistic and unrealistic, but for the most part, the mutations are realistic. I think you're giving human attributions to these animals. Conjoined lions would not make it in the wild. Same with the other mutations (except deaf and blind. i feel like deaf really shouldn't be lethal either if blind isn't.)
I do see the frustrations and criticisms on this topic, however, I don't see, realistically, a change coming. At least not to the already existing mutations



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peepy (#48100)

Savage
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Posted on
2023-08-10 06:39:21
I agree that the crowd control implementation has some very bad implications. And honestly it wasn't even that effective. I also agree with Luxaeus. It's not likely that lethal mutations will be adjusted at this point in time; not with the supposed recode taking priority. Only a fraction of players even have lethals, whereas the recode will affect everyone playing.

On your point about conjoined twins; yes there are some healthy adult conjoined twins. But the grand majority (1/2) are stillborn and some (1/3) die shortly after birth. Not to mention, those who survive still need top-of-the-line medical attention; attention that wild lions will not receive. Seizure medication, immunosuppresants, surgery... these are out of a wild lion's paws.
The flavour text for when a conjoined twin lion is born states that they are conjoined in a vital area. And, for all intents and purposes, all conjoined twins on this game are conjoined in the same area. They're all functionally identical. It's not possible for any of them to survive.

As for the other lethal mutations... Lipomatosis is covered in tumours and succumbs to them once they stop their breathing. Cleft palate is unable to suckle properly, as the gap in the roof of their moth is preventing them from forming a seal. Sirenomella has digestion problems and likely dies from sepsis. Harlequin Itchyosis and cyclopia...those are self explanatory. The list goes on...

I would personally like to see them implement a mutation that is radically disabling for the lion, but is non-lethal. However, there is no fixing the current cast of lethal mutations.



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Rango [G2 Mosaic
Bushveld] (#355827)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2023-08-10 10:36:19
I don’t see what the actual mutation suggestion is, so I don’t support. If this is updated with a way to solve the problems that you see in a feasible way, I might support



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Mad Hyena (#29080)

Special Snowflake
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Posted on
2023-08-10 10:53:23
No support, sorry; I see how people with similar conditions can feel offended the game treats lions with same traits as "lethal", however, you have to remember, you live in safe, perfectly controlled human environment, the lions on Lioden do not. Mantikores have nothing to do with the fact, say, a deaf lion is in constant risk of being trampled by a buffalo, by an elephant, at risk of missing a human with a gun sneaking up on them, at risk of not hearing a clan of hyenas coming, at risk the neightbours are a pride of cannibals or just looking to kill other lions... Human cities dont have even a small part of those deadly and sudden dangers. Lethal cubs, as much as adults would care for them, still cant have environment as safe and controlled as human world provides; lions live in dens and outside in the savannah, they do not have sterile hospitals that are carefully cleaned of any twigs, rocks, other small hazards like scorpions, snakes... In order for Lioden lions to enjoy environment as safe as ours, they would need to swipe down entire savannah and destroy a dramatic amount of other species to "clean up" the space to even begin building their "safe environment" - like humans did in fact, you cant quite meet a bear or a wolf in the middle of a city and if sometimes that happens, its a big news AND the other humans (police/animal control) will be there to deal with it. The care lions can provide to their pride members is just not enough to cover for this dramatic difference in security we humans have and wild animals dont have.

Wildlife is just too dangerous, and its incorrect to identify deeply with a fictional lion because it has the same condition as you - you are in a safe human city, with much greater security provided to you by extensive human society, but the lion is living in an entirely different world, its in a completely different environment. Having fantasy and sci-fi elements in game does not make Lioden world any safer for its inhabitants, there are MUCH more dangers in it than there are in human environments, and some conditions are just unable to survive in such dangerous setting. The questions of fantasy/sci fi or realism dont really have anything to do with how dangerous a said fictional world is!



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Edited on 10/08/23 @ 13:58:16 by Mad Hyena (#29080)

Wulfraptor (#242597)

Pervert
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Posted on
2023-08-11 21:04:33
my big balls suggestion has none of these issues right? I want fewer lethal mutations and instead mutations that spark joy and laughter.



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Vixxie|#1 mane
whiskered hater (#355386)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2023-08-12 21:21:44
hi! just here to say Lioden is very much NOT a pet sim imo i understand your shock at lethal muts but unlike a lot of the things about this game, lioden is pretty much on the realism side with mutations, and I mean.. how likely do you think it is for a lion who can barely walk to lead a pride, let's be honest here



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Edited on 12/08/23 @ 21:25:34 by Sophie | Dorsal Fur 5x Dawn! (#355386)

Readytest (#431796)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2023-08-12 21:26:02
I wrote:

"I don't even see why Blind/eyeless, clawless, or even deaf lions can't be kinged, even after a period of time! It confuses me because at a certain time they'd be well adapted to their surroundings and environment. "
^^
Yes, this is true, many animals have been documented to adapt to surroundings and their disabilities. There were documents of feral cats with blindness, deafness, paralysis, broken limbs, etc. hunting, fighting, surviving the wilderness. I think a deaf, blind, toothless, or clawless lion could easily become a king or do the stuff that other lions without such mutations can do as they age.



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JUDAS (#136893)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2023-08-21 09:56:13
"Not making it expensive to freeze your lions."
- Jellyfish(cubs) are 15-20GB via branch prices , Canopic Jellyfish(already dead lions) are 5GB+ and cheaper during the event, Turritopsis Jellies are only 5GB (adols/adults) and you get 1 free frozen slot, I don't know many players lucky enough to get more than one lethal mutation that would make freezing "expensive". I see freezing lions as a luxury and there's no loss to not freezing a lion as they just go to your dynasty. If you have muties then you should already know the amount of GB that goes into them so the price shouldn't be a shock.


"That doesn't make the game fun. It makes them incredibly sad. Using disabled death isn't fun, and using disabled death for weight isn't really great either." or "But, some like cleft palate, conjoined twins, and other disabilities that are survivable"
- This is very debatable as one person may find having to keep their pride alive fun and others may not. Lioden is a survival game let's be honest and without the necessities of feeding, playing and breeding there wouldn't be much point. These mutations are stupidly rare and they were first implemented back in 2014 when lioden wasn't so fantasy based as it is now (the fantasy is mostly events so if you don't participate in events then...?) Remember that despite the dragons and snowmen it's still a pride of lions. We don't get free healthcare here.

If they could survive they wouldn't be called lethal mutations and they wouldn't be so difficult to obtain.
also we do get snow in africa, snowstorms and blizzards sometimes!



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Readytest (#431796)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2023-08-29 06:05:51
" If they could survive they wouldn't be called lethal mutations and they wouldn't be so difficult to obtain. "
- @JUDAS (#136893)


Yes, but the chances of getting a once lethal mutie is -- maybe even **more** of a smaller chance than getting a leopon or a tigon.



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˚ʚ🩷ɞ˚ tawny
G1 Harlequin 14BO (#251887)


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Posted on
2023-10-21 22:47:45
"Yes, but the chances of getting a once lethal mutie is -- maybe even **more** of a smaller chance than getting a leopon or a tigon."

so... it'd just be a regular lion with horrible deformaties/is in a constant state of suffering? i know lioden has a strong realism element in certain parts of the game, but imagining a paralyzed lion dragging itself around on the savannah is kind of a bit much. i cant speak for everybody, but I cant image that the majority of the community would want to engage with stuff like that.



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Rose (#456767)

Prince of Terror
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Posted on
2023-12-08 23:38:15
Let me start with saying I mean no offense

For one thing, I agree that I don't really see why deaf lions might die, at least with the established levels of lethal muties, being deaf seems fairly mild. That being said, I can see the lioden team not wanting to go back without overwhelming support for that. I also don't think most of the other lethal mutations would ever have any other lifestage because of the absolute undertaking it would be to account for markings.



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