Posted by Raffle Lioness Tweaks

Blue [Full BO dawn] (#73123)

Holy
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Posted on
2023-03-14 09:06:35

Background Info


Hello!

I want to preface this with the fact that I am an old fart. I've been playing this game since 2015-- Almost 7 years! In those 7 years, there have been quite a few new players that have joined the game. Every week, everyone can have a chance at the raffle lioness.

Before, this used to cap at around 2,000 people-- Maybe 3,000 if it was a particularly gorgeous one.

As of the Tuesday I'm writing this, our current girl has 9902 entries and counting. I expect this to top off around 10,000 by the Friday she's drawn, meaning that 2,000 of old is *long* past by a factor of 5! This system was designed with the smaller numbers in mind!

The Problem


The raffle lioness is a special lioness meant to introduce new markings into the game, or refresh the old pool. She's a very special thing to win, but there are a few issues with her as she stands:

* She's nearly impossible to win.
* There are too many marks in too many possible slots that need to be fulfilled, so much so that 10 marks released a week doesn't really cut it.

When there were 2,000 people who wanted her, that was bad. With 10,000 people who want her, it's worse!

In short, demand has gone WAY up, and supply has remained the same.
Thalath summed it up beautifully: Too many marks, too many players, not enough lion.
We need to factor into account that the population of the site has increased since 2013.

Please note that I am NOT accusing the winners of hoarding marks! I also want to point out that it's HARD to let marks spread from a single lion only.

Some examples:
* Bushveld Brindle in slot 7 was released in October of 2022. There are currently 5 lions total with it.
* Fiery Brindle in slot 7 was released in June of 2022. There is currently 1 lion total with it.
* Shell Lace in slot 8 was released in July of 2017. There are currently 19 lions total with it.
* Feline 7 Ginger in slot 6 was released in April of 2017. There are currently 23 lions with it.

*Information has been gathered using the marking slot rarity Wiki page, and the raffle lioness directory pages.

This list can go on forever with a litany of how many markings we have, along with how many possible slots that can be filled.
For just a small sample size, there are 9 feline markings that can occur in 10 colors, making for 90 unique raffle feline markings. There are 10 possible slots that these can be released into, meaning that we're looking at about 900 separate slots and marks that need to be filled. There's 52 weeks in a year. If a lioness were released with nothing but unique feline markings in unique slots, it would take almost 2 years to get all of those out into circulation, which simply isn't reasonable. That said, there are a hell of a lot more raffle markings than just those few feline marks!

Proposed Solutions


1. More than 1 Raffle Lioness per week.
Event unlock numbers have scaled to accommodate more players, so why can't raffle lions? This one could be achieved in two separate ways:

1. Multiple copies of the SAME lioness per week.
2. Many different raffle lionesses per week.


This would get lionesses out to more hands per week, which is a greater opportunity for a marks to spread. It does not solve the possibility of marking hoarding, but it generally gets more markings out to more people. This resolves the issue of the old system being created for the smaller site traffic in mind.

If multiple copies of the same lioness are given out per week, it may feel as if they are losing how 'special' they are to people, though one could counter this with the existence of raffle lioness clones via crunchy worms. Multiple copies of every raffle lioness are almost guaranteed anyway, this would just create multiple lines of them genetically. Markings could spread more rapidly than some of the given examples above.

If multiple lionesses are given out per week, it allows for more diversity of markings to be released to the masses and stops the bottleneck of how slow dying marks take currently to be revived.

This does come with the cons that raffle lionesses may be deemed to be a little less special to the community (but remember winners getting harassed for winning?), and the human aspect that someone has to design these girls to be sent out, which may get taxing.

2. Each week a raffle lionesses is released, but a replica stud releases along with her.
Thank you to Angela!
This one is my personal preference. Let's think of August for a moment! We use August studs to quickly spread a bunch of markings to everyone, and everyone gets a fair chance to breed for what they'd like. It's all around a good system!

This option would see a regular raffle lionesses released per week, just as she is now. She'd also have a brother alongside her who can stud out to the community to release her marks on a much larger scale. Anyone who still wins the raffle lioness gets to keep a very special lady-- After all, a full breed-only lioness with g1 heritage is nothing to sneeze at! -- but those who may like her for her marks gets a chance at spreading those marks!

To keep it fair, you wouldn't be able to use breeding items with the stud, but you can still use items on your lioness. It's still pretty difficult to breed an exact copy, but it could get you close to it, and then you can shop with other players to get what you're looking for! This is a system we see on Wolvden already.

You could limit it to one lion breed per account, or you could make it a GB/SB sink-- Which is always needed in pet game economy to keep inflation from getting too high.

Suggestion: 2.5
The raffle stud system could mimic Wolvden's exactly, where everyone can take a chance to breed to the raffle stud. I'm quite partial to keeping the raffle lioness, though!

Space for Discussion



I do want to clarify that I do NOT want to get rid of the raffle lioness-- I personally have always loved the little mechanic.

I'd love to hear what you think! Are you interested? Do you think another idea would be better? Let me know! :)



This suggestion has 483 supports and 26 NO supports.



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Edited on 30/06/23 @ 21:32:39 by Blue [Full dawn, now public!] (#73123)

Moses πŸ‰ (#95222)


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Posted on
2023-06-30 16:20:42
I think it's important to remember that Raffle Lionesses are extremely hard to clone. While I agree with the concept of this post, blaming people for the lack of spread markings/spread rls when the system is to blame here is in poor taste. Support!



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jester [im autistic]
☘️ | πŸ‡΅πŸ‡Έ (#187561)


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Posted on
2023-06-30 18:12:03
None of the lack of markings spreading has to do with "hoarding", it has to do with RLs being a flawed system to begin with. I keep over FORTY (40) rare slots, and not a single person asks about them. I have gotten asked about 3 slots I own, s5 Dawn Margay, which has now spread significantly, a Seal Panther slot, which has not spread due to being used in projects, and a Goridhe Crackle Slot.
The people who own RLs are entirely at the mercy of RNG on if a marking spreads or not. The only way to effectively spread marking slots is to king a clone, but not everyone can just drop what they're doing to king a clone of an RL that just drew and people won't care about in a month. We can either breed the RL to a very long gen, naked, but dirty project king to get as many of her markings on fail cubs as possible, or breed the RL to short gen kings with full marking slots, making it nearly impossible for her to pass more than 1 or 2 markings on a cub. And if it doesn't passes on cubs and we kill the fail cubs, we're labeled hoarders. Owners of Raffle Lionesses are the only users in game who are expected to sell clones of their lions. If a Raffle Winner never sold clones of their RL, you'd be cheering them on from the sidelines, but if someone buys the RL and then never sells cubs? Not to mention it's literally against the game's code of conduct to ask if cubs are for sale, meaning many users who want the slots don't reach out in fear of being reported.

I work tirelessly to keep the rare slots I own alive. Every RL owner I know, even those with a lot, are more than happy to sell you cubs with specific markings you may be after, if we have them. If we don't, we'll put you on a list for when we get them. But half of the people who sit there and go "ohhh, people are hoarding rare slots, that's why RL owners are bad" don't give a shit about rare slots. They're just jealous that someone else owns something they wanted. Reach out if you really want rare slots, because I've joined the BO community in 2019 and I have not had a single problem getting rare slots I need for projects. People are happy to toss them your way to keep them from dying.



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Moses πŸ‰ (#95222)


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Posted on
2023-06-30 20:11:17
I think it's okay to be a little frustrated, especially if someone actively tries to keep slots active only to be accused of not doing that/being accused of being a 'hoarder' when it's hard to actively spread slots and RLs due to the game's mechanisms.

If you sell lions with rare slots that your king has but you don't want an exact copy of your king, I think that's fair. Nobody here is 'hoarding markings' by having their kings private.



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Edited on 30/06/23 @ 20:14:10 by Moses (#95222)

jester [im autistic]
☘️ | πŸ‡΅πŸ‡Έ (#187561)


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Posted on
2023-06-30 20:17:32
Restricting lions with the same slots as a king doesn't keep the slots from spreading. You can see this in Witchwood's numbers, she's had a restriction on same slots AND lionesses with less than 4 markings for years and her slots have spread through magnitudes, as has Serval's king, Rosamund. Having a bunch of near clones floating around is not good for the market, especially as those can undercut stud fees and make RLC kings studs essentially worthless. After all, why breed to the 1gb RLC stud when there's another stud with 13 of his traits up for 250sb? I'm not mad, far from it, I understand that to most people, they don't care or know what goes into keeping rare slots alive. What I am frustrated about is users who don't even keep rare slots or understand the work that goes into it accusing others who do of being hoarders just because the slot doesn't spread, or the same with RLC kings who want to keep near clones from undercutting them. Nobody wants their studs to have their prices slashed in half in order to stay competitive, especially as a lot of RLC king owners rely on the studs to help pay for their pride's day to day activity.

My rare slots have cost me thousands of silver beetles in the 3 years I've been keeping them. It's so much I don't even know. I will never make a profit on any of these slots, especially considering I give them away for free to people specifically seeking that slot, and only list them for 1GB or less on TC.

Plus, I find it really odd that I'm being called angry for just responding when this entire thread has been people throwing around the word hoarders and complaining about rare slot keepers or those who own RLs that are private lines.

EDIT TO INCLUDE:
The sites own systems themselves actively promote and reward what you guys call "hoarding". You cannot message users about lions who are not actively on TC, meaning many users refuse to reach out for fear of getting their account standing reduced for simply asking if they can buy a lion. Myself and many other rare slot keepers CHOSE not to go groupie hunting this year to save rare slots because we were scared of being reported. Without the users who are dedicated to buying RLs and RLCs, we wouldn't even have most of the RLs around today that we do. The same few people have been interested in RLs since they came to the site, and while many older ones are still gone, a lot of them still collect and preserve clones today. Without these users, say goodbye to these ancient designs. I only own 2 RLCs and 1 RL, but the RLCs I own are from 2020 due to the efforts of users who want to preserve RLs.

ANOTHER EDIT: I don't actually hate the core of this suggestion. I do think the Raffle Lioness System needs to drastically change and it is bad at spreading markings. But it is not the fault of the players who own them that RLs suck at spreading markings, it's the fault of the game itself. I would love to see Raffle Studs in game, or even multiple RLs if that's what it takes, as I am very dedicated to the conservation of these rare breed-only traits and go out of my way to do it. What I am not dedicated to is the devaluation of RLC lines, which is the one stable market we still have, and the entitlement other players feel towards "private" RL lines.



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Edited on 30/06/23 @ 20:25:35 by jester 🏳️‍🌈 (#187561)

KaijuKatt ❄️ (#277537)

Maneater
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Posted on
2023-06-30 20:20:29
I was initially conflicted on this post, until it became clear this was less about fixing a potential marking rarity/availability issue and more due to the fact people don't like how many RLs and clones certain players have collected. It is no ones obligation to give up clones or other cubs they have bred from their lionesses, and if people enjoy collecting things like RLCs that's clearly something they are passionate about. Raffle markings are always available via RMAs and while not everyone does this, players I've personally had the pleasure of interacting with who do collect RLCs are usually super nice and actively try to spread the marks via either selling or giving away fail cubs. The amount of over populated RLCs compared to the "hoarded" ones is staggering, and making them even less rare would crash one of the few remaining populated markets there is. And yes, a couple of players having multiple RLs and RLCs does not constitute a monopoly. I myself have been playing only a little over a year and have seen plenty of RLCs for sale, and even been able to buy a few myself despite not spending actual currency to afford them. It really just takes patience and hard work, something this game is all about. One issue I could see actually being worked on is re-releasing old rare marks from deceased/inactive clones. The unnecessary shade and even hate to people who put effort into being able to afford and upkeep RLC breeding projects, as well as the solutions mentioned being somewhat flawed (not entirely awful but could use some refining if they're implemented) is why I chose to no support.



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2023-06-30 20:24:24
I like "private" in quotes as if a scenario where you're obligated to sell heats/cubs of your lion that you own is in any way questionable or unusual. It's the norm for pretty much all lions, actually. Imagine if people demanded that owners of firstgen hybrids, the first people to breed combos and August bases, etc did the same thing and vagued said owners on every platform they could for not selling hybrid heats



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Posted on
2023-06-30 21:25:08
Hello,

We'd like to kindly remind everyone that disrespect, arguing, and making comments to criticize other players are not permitted on Lioden. If there is an issue with another player, we ask that you promptly block them or submit a Modbox ticket so that a moderator may address the situation accordingly.

We ask that this topic remains respectful and in line with the original idea stated in the topic. Further arguing or derailing of the original topic will result in this thread being permanently locked by a moderator. Let's avoid discussing the previous issue, please.

Additionally, please keep the Code of Conduct and Terms of Service in mind while engaging on the forums.

Thank you!



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Nalena (#1 Gem eye
fan) (#251956)

Famous
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Posted on
2023-06-30 22:05:45
honestly i think it would be really cool to see a male version of every RL that each player can breed 1 lioness too. it would help spread markings while keeping rarity of the original RL



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Edited on 30/06/23 @ 22:06:00 by Gurujee (G1 Stellar Colorbomb) (#251956)

🦎Eli β˜† πŸ’œπŸ’œ
PURPOCALYPSE (#244875)

Wicked
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Posted on
2023-07-14 08:53:37
I think that if we were to have two different RL's, we should only be able to enter one. so that it doesnt end up being 8,000 people on both lionesses.



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Chaparrita ❣️[G1
Main] (#36229)

UwU
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Posted on
2023-07-14 09:02:04
Been playing for 9 years and never won an RL.

Should be enough said. Seen new users win them more than the older members. Very unfair system .



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🦎Eli β˜† πŸ’œπŸ’œ
PURPOCALYPSE (#244875)

Wicked
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Posted on
2023-07-14 09:09:18
I haven't been playing for over a year. Yet its obvious that the demand/supply is very wrong rn. Hopefully the fact the RL hasnt been drawn means that there will be updates!



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Talmoi (#16689)

Heartless
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Posted on
2023-07-14 09:14:48
Just had my 10 year anniversary here, been active the entire time and I’ve never won an offical raffle of any kind, I’m given up any hopes of ever winning at this point.

I would love to see a raffle stud system added. the same or similar to wolvdens. Been playing that since Early access, 1022 rollovers as of today and I’ve won a breeding to the raffle stud twice. I like those odds better



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Chaparrita ❣️[G1
Main] (#36229)

UwU
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Posted on
2023-07-14 09:17:10
@Talmoi, Us older users have been done so dirty. Very sad to see so many of us have never won an RL !
But every time a user who JUST joined for a few months wins the RL /

#VeteransofLiodenUnite



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πŸ‰Giena
[he/they/hir]πŸ§‹ (#269975)

Buzzkill
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Posted on
2023-07-14 09:22:00
Please I beg if someone wins rl but doesn't ro for a month or two give it to another person



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gee|G1 Magpie
Kunzite 2Ros (#116927)

Divine
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Posted on
2023-07-14 09:27:01
ok after reading through this thread,, i have a few suggestions to make:

1: A raffle lioness that changes every 2 days, but within an 8 day period (4 Lionesses) you can only enter for two. This would mean the odds are higher, and with the inclusion of side accounts, you could still hypothetically enter for each lioness once, or 2 entries for two lionesses. This could lead to less than 10000 entries per raffle girl, especially as there isn't a week long period for entries to build up. although this could be seen as flawed or unfair, so its just a loose suggestion!

2: studs! i like the stud idea too, one stud per week, no breeding items that can be used. just a lucky chance to get some harder to get marks

3: similar to other suggestion threads, i like the idea of a raffle lioness suggestion thread. users are very creative, and it would be hard for the LD team to create multiple lionesses by themselves, so why not allow user suggestions? that way, just like base/mark suggestions, users can provide input for lionesses they would like to see, using rarer/unused marks. and as you cant be guaranteed the lioness will be available in the future, and then they win that specific lioness, i don't think it would be super harmful to let users design raffle girls!

just a few ideas, feel free to agree or disagree, they are not opinions i will die on a hill for, so id love to hear some input!



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