Posted by Base Passrate Boosting Totems

๐ŸŒป the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2023-08-18 15:20:58
It always struck me as odd that we have items such as Opal Saltlick, Rock Salt, Ochre Saltlick, and Ochre Gnawrock that fully guarantee basically every single trait in the game except for a lion's base. I know that the base is for sure the most valuable/most important part of a lion, which is why this suggestion will NOT be a guaranteed pass item like all the breeding items listed above are, but I think it's completely fair and would be pretty balanced for there to be an item that gives a slight boost.

It requires a tremendous, incredible amount of time and effort to breed good Special base lions with lots of BO marks- I've been working for months on my Vagabond king, who now has 6 marks plus eyes/skin/mane. I believe the odds of breeding a lioness with a special base and more than 6 or 7 BO marks runs down to as low as like 0.1% off of Witchwood calculations (thanks jes). My poll has also shown that a large amount of breeding projects seem to fail. This suggestion, therefore, is my attempted counter against this back-breaking difficulty. What I would like to see is more players breeding their own high value, BO-heavy kings rather than simply chasing after 'NRLC' lions, and having tools to do that without wanting to die nearly as much.

The best place for these items to be would be the November shop because there's nothing high-ticket already there. I would place both of them at 300 Scarab Beetles each in Tier 3. I know November applicators cost a very small amount, but that's because they're in the ancestral reward pool and because applicator demand increases very slowly. A shop-only item would cost more, especially if it had higher demand.

This suggestion is also intended to partner dually alongside Nyengo Totem, created by Jester. Ideally they would be implemented together.

Ancestral Totem
The powers of your ancestors have blessed this totem! Using this item will double the chance of your lion's non-combo special base to roll in the next breeding. Can be used on both parents.

Explanation:
The Ancestral Totem doubles the chances for the NON-COMBO BASE of the lion you use it on to pass. If you're unfamiliar with flat base passrates, they're right here: The newspost revealing them. What this means is that, upon using the totem on a lion, it doubles the chance for the base they have to pass (per cub, not per litter)- therefore, if you bred a Spectre king to a Spectre lioness, and used Ancestral Totem on the lioness, the passrate would go from 4% Spectre (2% from one parent and 2% from the other) to cumulatively 6% Spectre (2% one parent and two rolls of 2% from the other, totemmed parent). It would work on common and rare bases as well, but I don't know the concrete passrates of commons and rares since they haven't been revealed IIRC, so all I can say is that it'd just double whatever that is- using the Ancestral Totem on an Ebony lioness and breeding her to a Haze king would result in cubs that are twice as likely to roll Ebony base in specific, not just the rare category altogether. Since it'd be usable on both kings and lionesses, you could use the Ancestral Totem on both lions at once, creating a scenario in which each parent's special base rolls twice, maximizing the odds at cumulatively 8% per cub (actual odds are I think about 7.8% because it's the stacking of four 2% rolls) if both parents have the same special base (I.E. in a Lilac x Lilac breeding).

The Reason This Isn't Totally Broken
A) We have 100% guaranteed passrate force-pass items for mane, eyes, skin, and 1 marking that can all stack on the same lion. We also have Crunchy Worm, which technically has a 25% chance to guaranteed force-pass the base onto a cub and is infinitely more broken and overpowered (debatably destroying the entire lion economy and the usual process of breeding projects, for better or worse). We also have Yohimbe Bark, which has no daily limit, meaning you can stack these items as many times as you want in a single day repeatedly with the only real limit being the pricetag.
B) Assuming you totem both lions with the same special base, and stack with Buffalo Scrotum to have 3-4 cubs per litter, you would need to breed 12-13 cubs to hit 'guaranteed odds'. Not only would you have to have two lions with the same special base at hand, you would also have to be able to afford two totems and a Buffalo Scrotum each breeding three or four times over to reach these odds. If you were breeding 1-cub litters, you would need to do it upwards of ten times, and so would have to afford at least ten Buffalo Scrotums and twenty totems. Since these are a relatively expensive item in November's shop and buffies are buffies this is not very reasonable and therefore is not overpowered and abusable unless you're already performing high-ticket project breedings. At 250SCB or 300SCB that's 5000-6000SCB so very much not abusable.
C) Pretty much any base applicator would be more ideal to purchase than using a totem to try to increase passing said base, unless it's Interstellar. The totem would also be scarcely useful in most situations I.E. massbreeding for specials because using the totem on, for example, a Special x Common breeding like Jellyfish x Dove Gray would only include a second 1% roll, increasing your odds to cumulatively... 2%, or 1 in 50. Therefore they're only really useful for high-ticket breedings, such as attempted projects where you're targeting a specific rare or special (I would love to use it to double my chance at Fulvous base trying to breed BO eyes onto my king lol) or breeding something like a Haze king x a Spectre leopon and want a better shot at Haze leopons.

Two-Sided Totem
This totem has been imbued with an ancestral blessing that increases the chance to pass a combo base on your lion's next immediate breeding! Can be used on both parents.

Explanation:
An item that, in simple terms, adds another flat roll to generate a combo base, assuming the first roll fails. For anyone who's unaware, combos pass at 2% per cub, even when the same combo (I.E. Olive x Olive) is bred to itself- the odds are still 2%, as only one roll to generate said combo base is performed. This item simply neatly doubles that chance by adding a second roll. It works on both lions, meaning you max out at three combo rolls (one extra per parent) which is cumulatively 6% odds, and isn't restricted to lions that actually have combo bases- For example, if you applied it to a Maroon on a Maroon x Pearl breeding you would get two rolls for Serruria assuming you bred them during the daytime, AKA cumulatively 4%. If you put the totem on both that Maroon and that Pearl, you'd get three rolls, AKA tripled odds. I really hope this item is capable of being restricted to only be applicable to lions that actually have a base that's a combo factor so you don't accidentally use it on a random Amber.

The Reason This Isn't Totally Broken
A) Getting combo base factors is HARD, especially for fucked up combos like Squall which is only Cloudburst x Unholy. I wrote it somewhere else, but at 2% odds, aka 1 in 50, assuming you had only 1 cub litters you would need to breed 50 lionesses for a chance at a single one- and the max territory size without spending GB is only 40 lionesses. The difficulty of obtaining combos is reflected in how absolutely poor combo base numbers are- nobody wants to breed these things, because even old combos like Asiatic and Arabica have under 400 lions ingame, compared to the 892 Jellyfish lionesses that ALREADY exist. Nobody wants to breed these things and this item could at least be a sparkling expensive GB ray of hope in this barren bleak world. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful Rosamund-Citrine.
B) Everything I've already described above with the previous item: Buffies and totems would both cost a decent amount to use so consistently. With the Two-Sided Totem, using one only increases your combo base pass odds to 4%, which is the default maximum capped-out rate for regular special bases. You would have to buy multiple items just to increase your odds past said default cap for most special bases.

Optionally, I would like for these totems to be stackable, as in you can use both the Ancestral Totem and the Two-Sided totem on the same lion. As an example of how that would work, you can use the Two-Sided Totem on a Madagascar lioness, and use both the Ancestral and Two-Sided totems on a Sepia king, and then breeding them together would result in each cub having three rolls for Madagascar (cumulatively 6%) and an extra roll for Sepia (cumulatively 6%) as well. This debatably could be a little bit too overpowered, but then again, mutated raffle lioness clones are so common due to force-pass guaranteed items and cloning items that I can name six different ones off of the top of my head, so maybe broken versus not broken is relative.

Anyway that's all. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this suggestion.



This suggestion has 93 supports and 12 NO supports.



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Edited on 18/08/23 @ 15:22:03 by ๐ŸŒป the serval spots (#98320)

jester [im autistic]
โ˜˜๏ธ | ๐Ÿ‡ต๐Ÿ‡ธ (#187561)


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Posted on
2023-08-18 15:26:22
I already see no supports and my only question is... why? People act like this item is broken when we have shit like Crunchy Worms, that copies entire appearances and allows people to turn RLs/RLCs into clone factories, not to mention the thing that happened in Feb this year where everyone was barking an octa rosette lioness and those kings were absolutely everywhere. Granted, she didn't have a breed-only special base or anything, but the entire market for those lions was crashed by a single person who bought one and decided to sell barked heats. A single person made octa rosette studs charge 250sb for their stud fees.
And it's not like this item guarantees base passing, it raises the odds to roughly under 8% per cub at the absolute max. Which is literally less than if you breed two Piebalds together, which is infinitely easier to have than a special base king and a special base lioness. Plus, it wouldn't even be worth it in a majority of breedings, which is a big part of how Crunchy Worms were justified to the player base.

I'm going to be honest, I think the real reason people are no supporting this is because they don't understand what it would be used for. They don't understand that this only has a use in Project Breedings, or high value scenarios with multi-rose lionesses and kings involved. They see an item that increases base pass rate and go "NO OH NO" and don't realize how pathetic the pass rate of things are. They worry about the economy but don't understand this is not an item that would effect your average user. For a full break down, if this is used in a Special x Common breeding, it only increases the rate of the special to 2%, and if used in a Special x Uncommon/Rare breeding it only increases the pass rate of the special to 4%, which are numbers already easily achievable and as for the Special x Special breedings, if both parents are the same genetics, it's 7.8% per cub. That's less than a first gen hybrid has of producing a hybrid cub and we all know how much they suck at it without barks.

I get it, adding stuff like this seems scary, but this will help everyone. The rates are abysmal and a symptom of staff not playing their game.



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Edited on 18/08/23 @ 15:38:04 by jester โ˜˜๏ธ (#187561)

Kitty (G2 NRLC) (#278648)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2023-08-18 15:28:51
i read every. single. word. easy support.



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๐ŸคŽ leon | semi
hiatus (#208511)


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Posted on
2023-08-22 02:07:56
coming from the other thread, also a very easy support. i desperately want my project king to end up cinnabar, but that feels like a pipedream, so i'm settling for ubaste and mostly giving up. if there'd be any way for my cinnabar dream to be more feasible and not a nightmare, i'd be ecstatic



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๐ŸŒป the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2023-08-22 06:28:33
Thank you for your comment- I've actually been trying to breed a clone of my king, who also has a rare base, and it's gone for months with no luck even breeding her to marking clones. I think the people who are no supporting this legitimately don't understand how low the breeding odds for everything are- even a base category that supposedly passes 20-30% of the time is this hard to get 9 markings on, statistically, to where I'm just breeding away still after this long.



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๐ŸคŽ leon | semi
hiatus (#208511)


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Posted on
2023-08-22 14:08:48
just trying to get on 7 markings demoralized me, and now that im going through the trials of skin and eyes, cinnabar feels impossible. maybe if i throw mane, eye, and skin rocks at enough naked DUs, but that's such a resource sink on its own.

i think this would make a lot more breeding projects more accessible, which i think is a good thingโ€”breeding is the game's core aspect. it wouldn't make them terribly easy, you would still have to do the tango with rng, but things shouldn't feel so impossible. some people WILL hit the lottery on their own, but that's ridiculous luck and often after hundreds of fails.

plus, this would probably be a pretty niche item since when used wisely it would only be used on high stakes breedings, just not all the time for shits and giggles. like orchre saltlicks, id assume. or even gnawrocks. you don't just throw those on every silly breeding.

even if it would devalue bases, i think trading value for not being a fucking nightmare for just a base pass is worthwhile, but that's my potentially controversial opinion, lol.



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๐ŸŒป the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2023-08-22 16:52:28
Firm agree with everything. Breeding projects should be the centerpiece of BO and lions sold advertised as high BO should mostly have mixed BO, and would in a normal sim game naturally (We've had years to create plenty of mixed bo lions and the only ones with any permance are quads), rather than only endless 'nrlc' sales of lions with a few tier 2 marks. The fact that people would consistently rather pay 500+ GB for a RLC to king than do a breeding project means something in this game is wrong, and I think it's abysmal project odds.



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Edited on 22/08/23 @ 16:53:13 by ๐ŸŒป the serval spots (#98320)

Aura/Starfall (#209015)

Blessed
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Posted on
2023-08-24 16:15:43
At first I was going to no support then I read it all and...support



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๐ŸŒป the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2023-08-24 17:23:22
Thank you, if only everyone read it all



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