Posted by Successful Breeding for Specific Colors

Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2015-05-10 17:33:48
The new system is here, and while it might take a little getting used to, once you get the hang of it, it can help you target your breeding goals effectively. In case you haven't gotten a chance to explore this system, I've added a game guide about it here: Lioden Genetics Game Guide
* Hint: So I don't have to keep going back and forth between pages to find the color charts, I keep an index card with the color charts written and organized on it right in front of my keyboard for reference.


In this guide, I'd like to suggest a couple of techniques that can decrease the number of unwanted colors and increase your success rate, dropping hints as I go, while encouraging others to do the same.


First, you need to determine what your breeding goals are (this is the best part!). Are you looking for a lot of surprises and trying to create the most possible colors out of the fewest lionesses? Are you a "Naturalist" and looking to create the most natural-looking colors you can? Are you looking for bases that have gradients that resemble markings built-in to the base color, or are you looking for uniform colors that show off those coveted markings you've managed to establish in your pride? Do you prefer light markings that show up better on dark bases or dark markings that show up better on light bases? Do you want a pride that has only black or red base colors or only one color? Are you a Specials breeder? This is the beauty of this system: everyone has their preferences and everyone can target those coveted colors with a strategy as individualized as they are (we're all snowflakes, after all)! XD


With that said, let's consider the four factors that make up this model and how we can make them work for us.

Because many people are targeting one specific color or a small range thereof, let's explore this strategy. In this example, I am going to target Black. A general rule of thumb, just as it is in real life, is that breeding like to like will usually yield the best results (we'll look at exceptions to this rule later in this guide). Here's how the mechanics of a Black X Black cross work:

Black X Black photo BlackXBlack.jpg
* Hint: If I wouldn't mind having a Special pop up here and there, I might consider breeding to a Slate because not only will I get Black and Vandal, but I'd get a Slate cub roughly 15% of the time.

Solid colors are always nice to have in your pride if you're looking to showcase markings, especially if the cub has a lot of them, so let's switch it up a bit and breed to add some Solids. I'm not currently looking for bases in other Color Groups, so
I need a color from the Black Color Group, but I need a Solid to produce a Solid. I'm also looking for something nice and dark so the light markings show up well, so I'll make my choice from the Dark range. Chestnut is Black/Solid/Dark/Common, so that's what I've chosen, although Dark Brown will produce the exact same results. Here's what this looks like:

Black X Chestnut photo BlackXChestnutComplete.jpg
* Hint: If I decided that I'd like to try for a Black/Solid/Dark, but I wouldn't mind a chance of producing a Special, I could substitute an Onyx breeding for the Chestnut, which will also produce Onyx and Slate cubs, albeit at a reduced rate than Special X Special.

Perhaps, at some point, I might decide that I'd like some lighter colors in my dark pride, but I'd still like to stay in the Black Color Group. In this case, I'm only going to vary the shade (Light) and not the gradient (Countershade) to keep the number of possibilities to a minimum, and I'm choosing the only common-colored option there is: Gray . Here's what that cross would look like:

Black X Grey photo BlackXGreyComplete.jpg
* Hint: This breeding can be even nicer if I substitute a Maltese or Cocoa for the Gray, as it will add the occasional Slate, Maltese, and Cocoa to the possible outcomes I can expect, and those colors look really nice in a black-based pride.

Now that I've had success with my previous pairings, especially if I threw in the Specials breedings I hinted at, I've probably got a pretty nice, black-based pride forming. Because we all like to challenge ourselves, and I've decided to go for as much variation as I can within the Black Color Group, so I'm going to try to produce them all. This means I'm going to have to change more than one factor at the same time. In this case, I'm going to choose a lovely Silver because it differs from Black in Gradient (Black is Countershaded where Silver is Solid) and Shade (Black is Dark where Silver is Light). I would get the same results if I chose Vanilla or White. Let's see how this looks:

Black X Silver photo BlackXSilverComplete.jpg
* Hint: If I wanted to add Specials to this cross, I would choose Lilac (Black/Solid/Light/Special) to occasionally produce Slate, Onyx, Maltese, Cocoa, and Lilac, although Lilac has a reduced drop rate and will always be rare!


We've thoroughly explored the options within a single Color Group, and now we can start thinking about multicolored prides! Let's keep our black-based pride for our main account and choose a red pride for our second account. This is going to get a little more complicated, but the results will be worth it!

In my second pride, I've got a nice Prune king that I'm dying to breed, and while I like the common colors, especially that pretty new Brass that just got released, I really want to try for as many Specials as I can get my greedy little hands on!

If I breed my Prune to another Prune, I can keep my red pride very monochromatic, as the only outcomes will be roughly 3/4 Brass and 1/4 Prune. If I wanted to focus solely on Prune, this is the ideal match, but let's say I want to have ALL of the Red Color Group specials. I'm going to need a gameplan.

We already learned that to get all of the colors in a Color Group, we need to breed colors with differing Gradient/Shade/Rarity. Since Prune is Red/Countershaded/Dark/Special, to get the most variation with the best chance of Specials, I'll need a Red/Solid/Light/Special, which means I need to get my hands on a nice Sunshine. Let's see what this complicated cross looks like:

Prune X Sunshine w/Fiery photo PruneXSunshineComplete_1.jpg

But wait! Where's Sepia? Sepia involves a situation I haven't had to deal with yet: the really rare Specials, and Sepia is one we find in the Red Color Group. These Specials include Celestial, Lilac, Blush Rose, Hallowed, Sepia, Inferno, and Pearl. In order to produce a cub with one of the rare colors, one of the parents MUST be that color. This means that if I want Sepia, I have to breed to one. I can either use an outside stud for a Prune lioness I produce or buy, or I need to buy a Sepia lioness.

If I bought a Sepia lioness and bred her to my Prune king, all the factors match (Red/Dark/Special) except the Gradient: Prune is Countershaded and Sepia is Solid. In this case, we'd expect to see all of the Red/Dark colors, including Brass, Brown, and Mahogany along with Prune and Sepia. If I wanted to use that Sepia lioness to throw all of the colors in the Red Color Group, including the Specials, I'd need to breed her to her opposite in her group (Red/C.Shade/Light/Special), which would be Fiery.


For the last examples, let's say that I've got a Fulvous, Inferno, or Hallowed king. I look them up on the color charts, and I'm not all that pleased to see that their common group mates are Goldens, in the case of Fulvous or Inferno, and Creams, in the case of Hallowed. Before you retire your king early, you might want to remember that just because you're not happy with the Color Group they're in doesn't mean that's all you can create with them! To diversify your "fails" out of a range you don't like, choose a partner that matches them in every way EXCEPT for one factor, such as Color Group or Gradient (I like to call these "one off" breedings). Here's my suggestions for each of these colors, although these aren't the only solutions:

Fulvous X Cocoa photo FulvousXCocoaComplete.jpg
* Hint: If you'd like to try other Specials along with the Cocoa, Maltese yields exactly the same results as Cocoa. Maroon would produce Deep Fawn and Maroon along with the Goldens and Fulvous. A Fiery lioness is a very nice compliment to this type of pride and will produce Sandy, Deira, and Copper commons along with Fiery and Fulvous Specials and the Goldens listed above.

Inferno X Blush Rose photo InfernoXBlushRoseComplete.jpg
* Hint: Inferno kings also look nice alongside Prune lionesses, and you'll add Brass commons as well as Prune Specials. If you want to dilute the number of NCL colors an Inferno throws, try a Celestial or a Slate, which will produce Black and Vandal commons and Slate Specials (plus Celestials if you breed to a Celestial).

Hallowed X Russet photo HallowedXRussetComplete.jpg
* Hint: Are you looking to add more colors than Creams with your Hallowed King? Lilac would make another nice compliment, adding Silver, Vanilla, and White to your commons as well as Lilac Specials.


Finally, there may be some that are addicted to surprises and want as much color variation from their pride as possible. If this was my goal, I'd want parents that have nothing in common and choose parents with different Color Groups, one Countershaded and one Solid, one Dark and one Light, and for the very most variation, one Special and one common parent. Here's one example of this type of breeding:

Cocoa X Mahogany photo CocoaXMahoganyComplete_1.jpg
* Hint: With the current bases and arrangement, it appears that Fulvous and Russet would produce the most variation with 21 commons and 5 Specials.


I hope this guide has been helpful and helped all of you to come up with some strategies to get the most out of your prides. As always, if any of you have any questions I can help answer, please don't hesitate to PM me and I'd be happy to help!



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Edited on 11/05/15 by Alma (#7695)

Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2015-11-01 09:10:20
Yes, the "super special" bases are the ones that require one parent to have the base in order for cubs to get it, and those bases are the ones with lower pass rates than regular special bases. :)

Those bases are Celestial, Lilac, Skyward, Sepia, Unholy, Blush Rose, Supernal, Hallowed, Inferno, Pearl and Kimanjano.

And, like I said, Kitty said in chat that "bases (like Lilac)" have a pass rate of about half that of the regular special pass rate (15% per parent), which would put it at about 7-7.5% per parent. I'm just not sure if they ALL have that same rate, or if some have different rates (that are still less than 15%). Kimanjano, for example, sounds like it may, since leopons pass it on easier than lions do. And I seem to get more Sepia than Skyward... but that's just anecdotal on my part and I've been breeding Sepia lions far, far longer than Skyward lions so it may just be bad luck.

Maybe Alma will find something out, though. :D



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Sunlit (#10556)

Aztec Knight
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Posted on
2016-01-04 20:19:48
So, question; I'm trying to breed an Ice King. Right now, this consists of throwing every in heat lioness I have at every cheap ice stud I can find, but so far, no luck. What else can I do? Is Ice a special-special base?

(also I need to go through and sell off a bunch of less useful lionesses)



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2016-01-05 00:51:29
Yes, Ice is one of those "special special" bases; ie: you need at least one parent to be Ice in order for cubs to be able to inherit the base and it has a lower than 15% pass rate.

Throwing every in-heat lioness you can at an Ice stud isn't a bad idea (hey, you gotta get lucky at some point, eh?) but for best chances per breeding, I'd breed Slate girls to an Ice stud (Ice and Slate would be the only possible special bases from that pairing; same if you were to buy an Ice girl and breed her to an Ice stud). Celestial x Ice is also good (it just adds Celestial as a possible special base you could get, along with Ice and Slate). Black, Dikela and Vandal would be the common bases you'd get out of those pairings.

Breeding outside of Ice's Black Dark Countershaded grouping, I'd try to keep pairings to special base x Ice, just to help increase your odds of getting special base cubs.



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Snowcat13-5x
cimmerian G1 (#52694)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2016-01-05 00:55:40
I've been throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the ice boys too. LOL.
I have had 2 ice cubs so far. One from slate and one from onyx -both special bases.



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2016-01-05 02:16:18
I've had a Skyward base side king since August. Skyward is also one of the "special specials". I've only personally gotten 2 Skyward cubs from him, despite breeding him to every single one of my girls every time they come into heat.

Sometimes those low pass rates just get ya, ahaha.



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Snowcat13-5x
cimmerian G1 (#52694)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2016-01-05 02:32:21
LOL. Me too. I have skyward on my side, and also have only had 2 so far. But I'll keep trying. :)

I kept a spreadsheet on my previous lilac king to get a feel for actual pass rate after the change. I had over 400 cubs logged. My lilac rate to another special base was around 8.5 percent. To any other base barely 5%. I did a lot of cub chasing.



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Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-01-05 14:19:54
Thanks again, Msasi, for fielding all of these questions and doing a bang-up job! :o) I recently retired my Lilac queen who was bred to Celestial and Lilac studs only... I didn't receive a single cub of either color. I understand why they try to preserve the rarity of these colors, but it's pretty frustrating, isn't it?!

I'm assuming this is why we get markings AND bases for these colors, as the markings appear to have a much better pass rate, but I digress...



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Bluejay πŸŒ™ (#77339)

Sweetheart
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Posted on
2016-03-07 04:38:00
I got an unholy baby from an ice base mother and an unholy base father.... Didnt think this was possible because its not on the lists



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2016-03-07 04:42:45
Yep, it's possible. :) Because the father was Unholy, that base always had a chance to pass on his offspring. Unholy is just one of those "super special" bases that requires a parent have it in order for the base to pass, and it has a <15% pass rate.

Congrats!



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Bluejay πŸŒ™ (#77339)

Sweetheart
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Posted on
2016-03-07 04:45:05
Thanks. It'd been bothering me for about an hour or so...



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Snowcat13-5x
cimmerian G1 (#52694)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2016-03-07 05:02:51
Some of the newer special bases haven't been updated on the genetics guide linked above. I think Unholy does show on the Wiki though. Congrats. I love Unholy base.



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2016-03-07 06:18:36
Yeah, Alma is busy so her images aren't all up to date, but the wiki should be. :)

However, how the genetics work is still the same - those haven't changed - so the methods Alma discusses on how to determine what bases are possible from different breedings still apply. :D



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Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-03-07 06:21:08
Sorry, folks, I've had some significant personal and health-related issues lately, and I'm also updating my work portfolio in hopes of snagging a much-needed better job, so it's been a minute since I've gotten a chance to update the graphics on this thread... It's on my long to-do list!



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Sunlit (#10556)

Aztec Knight
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Posted on
2016-03-07 13:34:25
Thanks for all the hard work, Alma! ^__^ Still waiting on my Ice babies from my Ice king. He's just going to have to keep being very ... busy.



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bcblaisdell
(*G1Jelly Primal)! (#49097)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2016-04-07 15:00:37
my hematite stud produce a fiery/unholy n mother of fiery was fallow i think,,, :)



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Edited on 07/04/16 @ 22:02:09 by bcblaisdell (#49097)







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