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Posted by | Inbreeding mechanics |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593) Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 04:03:52 |
Yes. Inbreeding. That thing that many players go "Why do you avoid it it does nothing anyways" about. But please read it all before hitting the "NO support" button; I'd love to hear your thoughts, but please hear me out first. Inbreeding MechanicsIn real life, inbreeding will often cause malformations, mutations and a general detriment of the offspring's health if done to the extreme, and is used to conserve certain desirable traits in animals. We already have the second part easy enough - many breeding projects use the tactic of breeding the son that has the desired trait/s to his mother, or the contrary with a father and his daughters, to produce more lions with those same traits -, but I think it would be interesting to add a bit more complexity to Lioden. What if there was a set system that added a higher chance of miscarriage for each shared relative, with an added, smaller chance of producing a lethal cub, and generally producing offspring with lower stats than they would have normally, or even the possibility of spontaneous infertile cubs? It would certainly add another limit to the breeding system. Why would that be useful?The breeding system has currently a global limit, the fertile lifespan of a lion - from 2 years old to 16 years old for males, females from 2 years to 14, varying due to their own heat cycles and the use of Instant Cub Delivery, two limits to male breedings, and one for females: the males are limited by their own energy when mating with their own females, and the double of the usual energy and studding slots when mating with the lionesses of another player, while the females are limited by a cooldown after giving birth to a litter. And yet, there are easy ways to bypass these limits: the use of Energy Roots to breed within our own lionesses, that and Cape Bulrush for the stud requests, the Black Stallion that ensures the female it's used on will get pregnant the next try, and for females there is the use of Yohimbe Bark to shorten their cooldown - granted, this last item is only available during one Event and it requires a lot of them to make a big difference. Now, Energy Roots and Cape Bulrush are available all year around in the Oasis, and while the Cape Bulrush replenishes 3 stud slots per and costs 3GB - making those 3 additional studdings cost 1GB each at least -, it's rather easy to just buy Energy Roots and offer for people to send their females in heat to your account, along with the payment and other items that they wish for your male to use - at their own risk, that is. This means that the original 15 studdings limit - which would add a max of 60 new cubs to the game each week - is bypassed completely, and the amount of lionesses for them to breed now depends on the level of trust this player is given balanced with how much people want to stud to their male. A player could breed thousands of cubs, instead of the potential max of 24 cubs per lioness - the biggest litter is 4 and a lioness has a heat every 2 years until she's 14 years old, which means she can have around 6 natural heats - he could have in his own pride, plus the max amount of 2520 cubs if this male spent all of his weekly stud slots every week starting from 2 years old until he was forced to retire at 16, without using any of the items listed above. Even if we cut those numbers by half - because 1 and 2 cub litters are the most common - that amount of cubs produced by a single male is insane. How many of those cubs end up clogging the Trade Center, not quite meeting the requirements of their breeders, and yet having cost too much to be used as fodder and disappear from the database? How many of those cubs in the Tree, where they get their stats lowered to NCL amounts from before the overhaul of the system, and thus losing potential owners? With the implementation of an inbreeding system the mass breeding would slow down, either because the stillbirth regulates the amount of cubs produced or more players take their time to plan for a breeding searching for a partner with whom they share goals, if they don't want to risk it with the inbreeding penalty, letting the market breath and rejuvenate itself - and before you protest, yes, I know studdings to highly sought out lions take weeks and even months, and a lot of resources. This is meant for more studs to be sought for the players, instead of the same group all the time, which would even the market by adding more competitors, and thus lowering the prices, even. What would it consist of?To keep it well balanced, the lethal mutations would have to be a lower chance than using a CRB - whatever that chance is - but it'd be an added thing to roll when the cubs are conceived. And we already have miscarriages when a lioness isn't nested or isn't well fed, only that this would be a cumulative chance of a set percentage per shared relative, around 1%, even when that lioness is sated and nested. To avoid having everyone suffering from the penalties suddenly, this could be introduced gradually over a couple or real time months, when players have the chance of starting to reach out for lions unrelated to their own and the coders can go over everything a bit more calmly. The penalties could work in two diferent ways, but it's always calculated with the amount of repeated ancestors a lion has in his/her full heritage: first, by substracting the corresponding percentage of the inherited stats from a parent. Both parents would suffer this independently, before the resulting stats combined to be the ones of their offspring. If we take up to the Great-Great Grand-Parents of the parents, which would be up to a 30% of penalty per parent in the worts of cases; second, by adding a chance of the cubs of the litter being stillborn, rolling individually for each cub, and being the result of the sum of both the parents' penalties, divided by 2, which would result in a 15% of a cub being stillborn in the worst of cases. There's a lot of controversy regarding the possibility of a slightly higher chance of lethal mutations, so there's the option of creating a unique mutation for the system - a runt lion of sorts - that would be infertile and wouldn't be able to hunt, breed, patrol or be a king, maybe have a shorter lifespan, or having no additional mutation chance at all. Along with this, there'd be a chance - the same as the penalty - to produce spontaneus infertile lions. Summarized, inbreeding could entail:
Frequent comments:
*Note: Given the amount of feedback this has received, I will no longer reply to every single one; the OP is very clear on both the basis of the suggestion as well as the issues it was inspired of, and you are free to agree or disagree; just please don't take it on me as player. If you have doubts after reading it, feel free to PM and I'll try my best to explain myself better when I have the time. Nothing would please me more than to find a middle ground for the reasonable issues mentioned over the replies to be resolved, or even have another, better suggestion be born from this one. |
Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:05:34 |
You would think they aren't high, but they are. And that's the problem. Especially when you have so many players breeding. I understand those on top have control, but the thing is that they had to grind and work hard to even get there. If you implement something that fucks with all current stat breeding they would still be on top for a while. Especially those that come on about once every 1-2 weeks. Their lions live forever it seems. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Scottie (Lights ON!) (#87211)
Evil View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:06:56 |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:13:22 |
@HedaRedBox This is thought to take effect on the long run, so yes, it would take a while for those on top to fall with the rest breeders, but short of the admins manually modifying their stats, I don't know what you can do about them. Why do you buy CRB when there is GMO Cow, and vice versa? It'd be another thing to add to try to breed mutants, only people would have to be very careful in how they do and weight the pros and the cons. If you have a better idea to sort of "punish" inbreeding while making it doable and realistic, I'm all ears. If you send the lionesses to hunt 10 times every day, and feed them manually, it's easy to reach 1k by the time they are around 10, which means you'd have from 2 to 3 natural heats for them to give you high stated cubs. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Anonymous (#44152)
Demonic View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:15:08 |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:16:54 |
@13th Nightmare Nothing's stopping you from using all the three, or two, or just the one. I think I've posted a couple of times it'd be a lower chance than the CRB for the lethal mutations, wich is the only one that has a higher chance of producing lethal mutations. Edit: What I mean is, this affects the chance of you having a lethal mutation, but not the chance of having a mutation as a whole. 0 players like this post! Like? Edited on 02/04/17 @ 12:21:05 by Berenos (#84593) |
Heda Vampiric (#56702)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:21:07 |
No, I do not have another suggestion because I am against punishing for inbreeding. As 13th Nightmare said, I like how breeding is now. I would also like to point out that I think this suggestion is pro-mutations and anti-stats. You seem to want to kick stats in the gut, which usually take inbreeding to some degree to get because we have a limited gene pool to work with, and then make mutations easier to get (Because you cannot deny that people will inbreed a shit-ton just so that they can get a mutation or better- a lethal). I also feel your 1k NCL supports this. If you are inbreeding for a mutation you can breeding it from it's first heat. If we had to do that to NCLs not only would our cubs be ugly as all hell, but we would have to wait forever just to get 2 good breeds. (IF you IBF her she can give you max 2 heats if you have to train till 10.) 0 players like this post! Like? |
Raamiah [rolls on Sundays] (#83061) Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:21:34 |
@ Berenos - why should the leaderboard players have to 'fall' in this suggestion? We have put huge amounts of time and resources (and often money!) into our lions, and don't want to see all of our hard work removed :( In the same way that people choose GMO over CRB, in order to maximize the chances of achieving a goal, so too are people going to breed to the leaderboard players in order to maximize the stats of the offspring, that's simply how it is. I'm sure there is a middle ground where 'realism' comes in without ruining anyone's experience here on Lioden! My suggestion for 'punishing' inbreeding without affecting stats is as follows: do not introduce the 'stacking' feature, and do not consider a lion's extensive lineage. Punish father-daughter and mother-son breedings, by all means, but do not delve deeper into the lions' heritage :) 0 players like this post! Like? |
Fart (#25392)
Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:22:56 |
No support. I don't want such a cheap/easy way to increase mutation chance, even if the chance is small. Especially since lethals are so valuable. Some people supporting this are saying we should support it because Lioden isn't supposed to be easy, but this would make it significantly easier and cheaper to breed something extremely valuable. Not to mention that the miscarriage/stat reduction mechanics would almost certainly disproportionately punish newbies, casual players, etc, because they don't have the currency or connections to trivialize the feature. Each loss is far more significant to them. 0 players like this post! Like? Edited on 02/04/17 @ 12:23:50 by Fart (#25392) |
😸 Chonk 😸 (#54568)
Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:25:12 |
Total support. I've been thinking for awhile that it would be a great idea to give stat penalties for inbreeding. The chance for miscarriage is also a good idea. There is a lot of non support, but I think this would make the game much better and a lot more realistic. This would also force people to use a variety of studs as opposed to rebreeding to the same stud over and over. It would be of great benefit to the market overall. 0 players like this post! Like? Edited on 02/04/17 @ 12:28:11 by Locust {Reduced Royalty} (#54568) |
Whale Biologist 🐋 (#35355)
Pervert View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:25:37 |
I support. I think the whole stats thing going on sounds like an issue, and while this wouldn't do very much to change that, I think it'd be just enough not to anger anyone too much while also making some difference. 0 players like this post! Like? |
Gyrendolen (#106188)
Angelic View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:29:10 |
I'd like to back what @Divided We Fall said as well. The closer two lions are related, the worse the inbreeding could become, and the amount of times inbreeding should play a role. Father-daughter would be worse than grandfather-granddaughter. Father-daughter, father-daughter, father-daughter should be worse than plain father-daughter. 0 players like this post! Like? |
scout ➴ (#28482)
Divine View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:32:15 |
I like this suggestion. As mentioned by people before me, lioden's economy is crap. This would help the selling cubs/stud market a lot. The only thing I don't really like about this idea is the increased chance of lethals- there's over 10000 people on lioden, and lots of them would start a huge inbreeding project for lethals. While the chance for lethals is already pretty small and you say the inbreeding chance would be even smaller, if enough prides began breeding for it, there would be a noticeable amount of lethals being born. That's what I think, anyway. 0 players like this post! Like? Edited on 02/04/17 @ 12:35:18 by Scout (#28482) |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:32:48 |
@Heda RedBox and Raamiah This suggestion is not to add a punishment, per se, but a whole new level of depth to the Lioden mechanics. Do you remember when the whole genetics system was changed? It made most of the players to rethink their breeding projects, and it needed a bit of a tweak to equal the medium shade breeders, but it was a great addition overall - at least, in my opinion. And this is thought to add a bit of a challenge, while keeping it within doable limits and help regulate the stat market a bit - it is not meant for those on top to fall, but for everyone to have a fair chance at stat breeding. The stacking feature is thought to affect only to the Great-Great Grand Parents, but if you think that's too much, it could be until the Grand Parents instead - is that how it works in humans for it to be incest? I'm not sure. I need to look it up, it'd be another alternative. In the end, it'd be up to the staff to decide the percentages, this is what I came up with with my limited knowledge and brainstorming with other players. 0 players like this post! Like? |
SlashNHack (#102040)
Kind View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:34:33 |
Supported this would be a cool new feature, thre should probably be an item that erases or reduces inbreeding, a ton of other reasons are smack on this post, so imma not list them 0 players like this post! Like? |
Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)
Resurgent View Forum Posts Posted on 2017-04-02 05:34:40 |
@Fart As I've said before, it increases the chance of having a lethal mutation, not a mutation overall. The newbies thing has already been adressed in other replies, so I'll try to reply to you later with the links. 0 players like this post! Like? |