Posted by [Dec] Improvement direly needed

Louse
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Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 17:37:46
The December event wasn't very fun, it wasn't exactly awful but it wasn't very rewarding for what we were expected to do in the first place. This is for possible improvements, so spitballing is appreciated, no arguments. I'll be updating this as things change/ideas are thought out.

To preface: I do not hate this event, I don't hate the idea, I just would have enjoyed it more if the execution was better

Don't support these fixes? Let me know why, your idea might be good too, hell it might even be better! Let's talk, we both want Lioden to be the best it can be.

We'll start with what was GOOD about the event:

-The gifting/pooping concept was fun
-General decor/stuff in the mantis shop
-The bars to open the store was very well balanced and very fair, a vast improvement from the October event, and I'm glad to see that the data from October has been useful
-I absolutely love snuhlions even if they are bizarre and entirely useless
-The advent calendar
-The encounters in explore. I love the leggy felis, please give me leggy felis decor.
-Community effort (to a degree)

What was just plain bad:

-The absolute, dismal lack of event currency in explore (continue reading before typing up a comment about alternative methods to get stink bugs)
-Gifting/pooping having a karmic slant
-Poop not guaranteeing stink bugs, even one, coupled with the chances of getting one from a shit pile being as low as it is
-Heavy reliance on RNG and user assistance
-(By 109872 - The message after pooping implies you're an awful person, and it has more negative effects than staff things (click for more detail)

Why the pooping and stink bug issue was, well, an issue:

Event currency is not supposed to be super easy to get, but games are supposed to be at least a little fun, and trying to get stink bugs was akin to pulling teeth. Within a week, I was already fed up of the event, and had all but given up, because I knew no matter what I tried, the reward would not be satisfying enough for the effort.

Stink bugs being hard to get in explore made the site reliant on other users to "provide" stink bugs, and there's a number of issues with this and how it was executed:

-Pooping was made out to be a bad thing, and didn't indicate it gave event currency. The flavortext for leaving shit was incredibly negative, suggesting you should stay anonymous, should you choose to poop and not gift. This coupled with it not being made clear at all that poop gives stink bugs, the event was already heavily slanted towards the userbase not giving enough shits for the reward to be satisfying at the end of the event. Just in general, relying on your userbase to be the main source of event currency is a poor idea. That should have been supplementary at most.

-The shockingly low chance of getting stink bugs from poop was incredibly frustrating. I would say that it came to less than a third of chance to get a single stink bug from a shit pile, and if you didn't have valuable things to give away on the forums (more about this later) then the chances of you getting many shits to dig up is unlikely.

-Players felt the need to give away valuable items/an absurd amount of GB in order to JUST MAYBE get enough event currency. There were multiple users offering 100+GB in value in hopes of getting poops, that even then would only MAYBE give them a stink bug. When your event is that hard to get any kind of result from, your system is broken, and it needs to be changed. This wasn't just a few users deciding to do this out of fun, it was a huge thing, and too many people felt stressed about the lack of currency for this system to be actually functional. This event ended up "Pay to maybe win sort of" instead of being a community event.

Pooping and gifting shouldn't have been karma based. Why is giving holiday currency bad karma? This is heavily suggesting the staff didn't want the players to provide a shot at getting stink bugs, coupled with how hard they are to get in explore, there's not many other ways to view it. Punishing people that want to have good/neutral karma for actually helping people get event currency comes across pretty shady. There wasn't even any direct money-green esque tinfoil hat conspiracy garbage that could be pulled from it, since pouring USD into the game wouldn't give you stink bugs.

More may be added.

Regarding why having such a main user-assist focus just didn't work this event:

-The low chance of stink bugs. No matter how much people came together, the low chance of getting event currency was atrocious and held the event back. The reward at the end of the even is tier 3 and being able to buy applicators - something that just wasn't a reality for a good portion of players, even if they could dedicate an absurd amount of hours to the game - which brings me to my next point.

-This event punished those who couldn't play all hours of the day. Stink bugs being hard to get meant that an absurd amount of time each day would have to be put into the game in order to get a less than satisfying amount, if you wanted even a workable amount of stink bugs, you needed to be around a LOT. I actually experimented with this - I didn't touch my sideblog much RE exploring, but did more on my main. The results were exactly what you'd expect, someone that couldn't dedicate all the time in the world just wouldn't get a workable amount of event currency. I'm pretty much housebound bar rare visits and trips out, and I still struggled.

-Relying on your userbase for something as big as this so incredibly unwise. Have faith in your userbase, but don't put your userbase's enjoyment and reward in other people's hands. Have faith in your userbase, don't blindly trust it. User contribution to events such as this, where the main currency and reward is resting in the balance, should be supplementary at most. A way to get bonus currency and maybe help you hit that last stretch goal for the decor/apps you wanted. Making it the main/equally as influential is a bad idea that's guaranteed to cause dissatisfaction.

This is only SOME of the concerns I could raise, but these are the main ones. Now, since this is a suggestion forum, and not somewhere to just be critical, I do actually have some solutions that could be fleshed out to combat the issues brought up.:

-Have stinkbugs be more frequent and not massively userbased. Just have stinkbugs show up like they do in the other events, and have user interaction be supplementary on that front.

-If you want user assistance to stay a main feature, improve stink bug chances on shitpiles. Have most shitpiles guarantee at least one stinkbug, and have a rare chance of getting between 2-3, and have a fairly low failure rate that result in getting 0. This doesn't 100% guarantee every shit will have a stink bug, but you're also not screwing the userbase over.

-Don't make gifting/pooping karma based. This was just a bad idea overall. If you WANT there to be a karma element to the event, this wasn't the way to do it.

-Make snuhlions karma based instead! They would need to be changed up, but snuhlions could be karma based! You could build a snuhlion in someone's den, or knock one down, and gain a stink bug either way - essentially the same thing as stomping/chasing locusts in the september event, but with snuhlions. That way you can still see the majestic shitshow you construct, but it actually has a use.

-Be more upfront about pooping. Make it more obvious pooping has a shot at leaving the player stinkbugs.

-Leggy felis decor please and thank you

-(Thank you 60326) The poop message should be funny, not harsh. This whole event is a joke, there's no reason to harsh the vibe that much. Make a joke comment about it, lighten up!

More will of course be added as time goes on.

No idea how to sign this off so just. Gestures.




This suggestion has 94 supports and 16 NO supports.



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Edited on 25/12/17 @ 18:55:29 by Louse (#125435)

Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:39:10
@13th Nightmare (#44152) - the wiki is useful, but you should also have your game set up well enough you don't need your players to go offsite to make sense of it ALSO HOW DO YOU MAKE YOUR ICON DO THAT, THAT'S COOL.





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Edited on 25/12/17 @ 18:41:18 by Louse (#125435)

Aly <33 (#124168)

Wicked
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:41:39
@13th Nightmare - I personally don't think you should have to dig through the wiki to find information on what an item does (only to not find it), if pooping gives/takes Karma, etc. And the wiki seems to not always be updated, from what I've seen? Which is no problem, but if that's where you're saying information is, I believe it should be updated. ^^"



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Cosandk (#103750)

Demonic
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:42:36
The wiki isnt even updated.
Its missing its crafting page.



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Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:44:03
Yeah the wiki is also not updated, and has a lot of holes in it, so while the wiki can be great it's not a reliable source.



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Diegos (Graymalkin
Side) (#60326)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:48:17
Re-posting since site ate my last post of this))@Louse - So, the idea that a certain amount of poop/gifts = special events seems interesting. Maybe that could be a karma thing! Like, instead of each poop/gift = +/- karma, your total determines it. On the 25th, if you pooped more then gifted, you get a say, 50- karma drop. Its still a hit, but one you can plan ahead for and handle in the aftermath, rather then balancing things during the event. Just spitballing here :)

@ Pasthorizon - I have Social Anxiety too, and while the power to be anonymous is enough to remove any stress for me (I am less affected by online interactions to begin with, then in person ones), I can see why it would trigger other sufferers. Maybe changing messages to be more funny, to lighten the blow, or making everything anonymous by default to help out the stress? Again, just spit balling.

As for the whole, wiki it thing-I totes agree. I know the Event announcement mentions the karma issue, but I don't always remember everything it says, or just click the link to the announcement but don't read it (to make the notification go away :P ) I can see ppl missing or forgetting that pooping = karma drop.



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Louse
[PUTP]πŸ…ŸπŸ…πŸ…¦ (#125435)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-25 18:51:37
@Cheshire (Graymalkin Side) (#60326) - This sounds like a way better system immediately, then you at least kinda know what to expect. Also means you can hoard up exp items/energy items to get that mad karma boost.

and YEAH i wondered why the poop message was so negative and not silly, which just makes the intention seem oddly malicious. This whole event is a joke, why the harsh vibe. A silly flavortext about it being somewhere that'll be hard to find and leave a gross smell or about it "being your best work yet" would be funny and way better.



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cinβ˜†vo h2hoe (#106573)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2017-12-25 21:09:17
Hm.

I have no opinion either way when it comes to the karma issue, as after my first kings on each account I realized I didn't care as long as I was at a certain level that I would get certain explore events and it was pretty easy to maintain that (especially because I was aiming for 666 of each pooping and gifting for the RR sneks so it canceled out). However, if people were that concerned I see no reason why the karma effect couldn't be taken out of it. I also don't hate the idea of making pooping or gifting the good or bad option for your particular den.

I didn't think the pooping message was that big of a deal tbh. I mean marking another lions territory would be an aggressive move I'm assuming irl? So that makes sense. And honestly gifting useless items is actually the worst option but that gives a positive response? I have sympathy for those who were upset by the text but different things affect people in different ways. When people first got anxious about the text that's when I would have stopped pooping in dens. There is nothing forcing you to poop, the only thing you can't get in this event if you do zero poops is the mole snake skin for RR. Events are optional, and I don't really think they necessarily need to be changed to meet the needs of a select few. That said, it's not like I would be mad if they changed the text because it wouldn't negatively affect anyone.

Also the fact that poop bundles could give event currency / that pooping gives negative karma and gifting gives positive was in the news post. I've seen this quite a few times where something is in the pinned news post for an event and then people don't read it. I just don't get it lol. Where would this information feasibly go if not in the news post where it already is? I don't really want a bunch of information text added to each den in December.

Lastly, event currency isn't meant to be one to one (re: Just have stinkbugs show up like they do in the other events). Stink bugs β‰  blood beetles β‰  dive beetles. That's why prices for decor and applicators vary between events. Arctic Circle is 150 stb but bloodbourne infection was 250 bb. The way users allocate their event currency for items also depends on the selection. Some months have a ton of applicators and decor. Others have breeding items that you have to choose between. There's no one "satisfying" amount that all players should get. That keeps some items rare while others are common and more affordable. Because there are many events that make it quite easy to get applicators, decor, breeding items, etc, I can't support the idea to make the harder events easier. I prefer variety.

Oh and I also was under the impression that exploring was always meant to be the primary activity for collecting event currency? Because isn't this the first year that stink bugs can come from poop bundles? I may be wrong about that I think I'm wrong about that lol! but anyway explore is where I got the majority of my stink bugs and I assume that was intended? But I could be wrong.



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Edited on 25/12/17 @ 21:13:43 by cin✨siderealslender (#106573)

Juminakata (River) (#6903)

Toxic
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Posted on
2017-12-25 21:10:52
y. e. s.

Thank you! I have ALOT of time to dedicate to lioden the past few months, including this one, and while the rabies one was really fun and a breeze with the amount of time I had, though the massive amounts of stuff to get leveled it out fairly evenly in my eyes, this month was just. Me stressing about if I could get the (expensive as fuck with gb) apps to finish my king's design. No fun at all. The massive amounts of forum work I put in in the beginning quickly wore me down and I just couldn't keep it up. Tedious work like that kills it for me, and in the end I only got maybe a hundred fifty stinkbugs from what was either 400 or 500ish piles of shit.



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Luxaeus [hiatus] (#78363)


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Posted on
2017-12-26 12:50:24
I agree with cin. It was in the news post. Maybe if people read it, they would know. It is not that difficult to ask helpers regarding the event either.

And I believe stink bugs can be fairly easy to get. You should've seen last year. Stink hugs from poop wasn't as often than last year.

@cin no, this is not the first year. I think the December event two years ago had stink bugs in poop as well



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redempress (#125184)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2017-12-26 22:17:07
Event currency should be difficult to get, but it shouldn't be this fucking difficult. It's absurd. Especially when people are off interacting with family during the holiday and not playing this game all day long. I'm supporting.



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Draygon (#127745)

Usual
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Posted on
2018-01-02 23:09:31
Trying to get event currency for December was a nightmare. Made worse by the fact with the holiday season I for one ended up losing out on a week and a half of playing due to visiting family and travelling and dodgy internet. I can understand people saying that it is meant to be hard to get but it is worth considering that it may well be even harder for people to play normally during this month.

I hoped like mad that the bundles at my den would give me loads of beetles so I could buy the decors, backgrounds and applicators. But from 170 bundles of which three quarters were poop... I got a grand total of 15 beetles. And I only got hat many by randomly speaking up in the shoutbox in the hope people would click my name. A lot of others arent' that lucky.

With regards to the karma thing - yes, I definitely affected how I played. I wanted to keep my good karma so I primarily gifted. I only started giving poops to try and unlock the RR level.

My wish is for next year removal of the karma for gift/poop system and an increase in Stinkbeetle currency drop.



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Cosandk (#103750)

Demonic
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Posted on
2018-01-03 08:43:32
I dont even think that the chance of stinkbugs dropping would effect it that much. Just make it a tad easier to get them even.. I was on every day, grinding the explore and commenting on Gift/Poo the person above! forum threads. I still didnt even get 150 bundles and i was lucky to get 10 bugs.
I lost interest in the game for a bit, but i still played because i needed the bugs to get a spicey ice .

and one full bar of energy maybe gave you 5-10 bugs if you were lucky. i went some full bars with 0... most.. with 0.



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Sicarian (#86672)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-01-04 12:06:08
I don't know if I agree with how low exploring stink bugs are. Sometimes to profit you're karma is going to tank. For any event. That saying by (mostly) pure exploring plus strategy my main account easily came out to 500 StB and I started my side 3 weeks late but still managed to get a few shy of 200 StB. So it's not impossible.

I do absolutely agree about the StB poop bundles. I had at least 270 poops out of 343 in my den and I only got 20 StB. That's well under a 10% drop rate. I also feel a restriction about taking or adding karma into the equation. I don't believe the user should be a deciding factor as Cheshire proposed. But will agree it also needs a second look into fixing.

Overall, these gains for event bugs are always going to be an issue. But gaining decent sums is completely possible. Even if you only explore 2-3 times a day. I was satisfied with the event but something could be tweaked. I've learned the hard way to flexible about how you are going to play the event. Sometime my evil side does much better than my good main and vice versa.



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Korb (#2663)

Usual
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Posted on
2018-01-04 12:18:52
don't know if this information is useful but it took me at least 6 irl days to get to 100 stink bugs with a moderate amount of exploring. for each 100 it was pretty consistently 6 days.

casually this is fine imo but yeah if someone wanted to stock up on apps to sell later in the year it would be tough

*actually didn't consider the fact a lot of people would be on holidays, so maybe not okay casually? lol



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Edited on 04/01/18 @ 12:23:39 by Risio (#2663)

Karmo (#98909)

Divine
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Posted on
2018-01-06 00:39:10
2016, I wasn't able to get much currency, although being on every single day.
2017, the same thing, I barely added on to the previous amount. And I got 60+ poops in my den, none came with StB. So that was great. I was on every single second, and I had enough to get at least one decor and a few very low priced decor.



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Edited on 06/01/18 @ 00:40:26 by Karmo (#98909)







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