Posted by -LOCKED - -ADDED TO THE GAME-Fix Albino Pass Rules || 1059+/-37

Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-02-13 09:45:20
For all who are worried- this is not to eliminate the base or even prevent it from passing at all, this is just to get the base to follow the rules of genetics that Lioden has, OR to significantly lower the chance of it cropping up outside of its genetic groups.

For me, this is the most frustrating thing in game.

The albino base can pass from anything. It ignores every piece of genetics in the game, and hurts specific color breeders hugely.

Albino is a Black Light Solid base. According to the wiki:
"If you were to cross two parents from the Black colour group, all of their subsequent offspring will have bases from the Black colour group. If you cross a Black colour group parent with a Cream colour group parent, you will end up with offspring from both the Black and Cream colour groups."

"Dark x Dark = Dark
Light x Light = Light
Dark x Light = 25% Dark, 25% Light, 50% Medium
Medium x Medium = 15% Dark, 15% Light, 70% Medium
Dark x Medium = 50% Dark, 50% Medium
Light x Medium = 50% Light, 50% Medium"

"Breeding with gradients is a bit simpler than shades. If you cross two Countershaded parents, all offspring will be Countershaded. If you cross two Solid parents, all offspring will be Solid. If you cross a Countershaded with a Solid, you can have cubs from either gradient!"

Now. Considering this information, let me show you my most recent litter, and a prime example of what albino is doing.

This is Concha
Her information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

Her mate for this most recent breeding was Lord Kumba
His information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

According to this, cubs should look only like this in respect to genetics:
Cream Group, Dark Shade, Countershaded Gradient.
Because it is a Cream x Cream breeding, all cubs are cream.
Because it is a Dark x Dark breeding, all cubs are dark.
Because it is a Countershaded x Countershaded breeding, all cubs are countershaded.

But then we get to her firstborn daughter.

This is the cub
I am not protecting her so that link will probably die out soon. To prevent this from being lost, here are all of the screenshots that pertain to the cub's information.

Currents and Stats, Parents
Breeding Info
Appearance

What is this albino?
Black, not Cream, Light, not Dark, Solid, not Countershaded.

This is a huge conflict in breeding and it is exceptionally difficult when a breeder has to deal with this in their litters.

The issue is that, with many breeders, not only the fact that albino can pass from anything and ignores all genetics, but how often it happens. If I have any sort of breeding going, from 2 lionesses to 20, at least 1-2 of the cubs will be albino.

What I am suggesting is as follows:
A: Making it so that albino obeys normal genetics like everything else
or, for all those who say that albino should be able to pass from anything because it's an 'unnatural' base (it's not achromia, it's not a mutation, it is a BASE, just a reminder!)
B: Significantly lowering the chance of it appearing randomly in litters. A 0.1-0.5% chance should suffice. There is no reason that it should show its face so often among our litters, make it a surprise rather than a disappointment.
Maximum Storm (#114957) suggested perhaps making it a lower chance for everything other than black with a slightly higher rate of appearing with black bases!
And now, thanks to Thalath and Bezthiel...
C: Adjust albinos classification to Black Light Solid Special. Black has a lot of specials already, but not many in that particular class (light solid). Restrain it to it's genetics, and then make it be an applicable special base like Onyx or Maltese. This way it can be a slightly more useful base, and it would fix the issue of how underappreciated the base is right now.
D: Suggested by Seabunny #114144. Make Achromia and Melanism inheritable mutations, and give Albino a new name, locking it into its own group but still allowing for people who like the idea behind it to be able to breed for Achromias that result in the same 'albino' look.
E: Combined Suggestions. Make Albino a special base, and then make it a breed only occurrence. No longer applicable from the oasis, a special class, the demand for Albinos and their appearance on rarer lions (high statters, tigons and leopons, other mutations etc), would skyrocket

I know that renaming albino is a rejected suggestion but I'm still going to keep the option here because I feel that giving as many possible fixes to the solution is a better idea than giving one suggestion that 90% of people dislike even if 80 of those 90% would support the fact that albino needs to be fixed somehow.

Edit 2/14
River #6903
"Yes. This made sense if we had no achromia mutation, but we do so...."
As they said, the Achromia mutation negates the need for albino to pass from anything. Albino isn't a mutation, so it should not pass like a mutation does. It should obey the normal base genetics like all other bases have to.

Edit 2/15
According to Taevali and Kristy, based on their experiences, the pass rate is roughly 15-20%, meaning that in 100 cubs bred from ANY base 15-20 of them will have albino bases. That is ridiculously high, and overpopulates the game with this base. According to Bezthiel, it was at one point only 3%, but it feels much more than that and may have been raised.

Edit 2/16
New fix suggestion implemented!

Edit 2/19
Coal #133177 has suggested that the rate be adjusted to something closer to 1/5000, to make it a rarer occurrence.

Edit 3/19
Adam #68231
Used the Scrying Stone before my Anjeer lioness gave birth (ended up using IBF on her anyway) and the first few results were almost all Albino, despite the stud being Sunset.

Edit 3/20
Brought up by TrotterTheOtter @27811
With how few breedings females have, the level at which albino crops up can be extremely detrimental to someone who is trying to obtain the base using just their female and an outside male. Especially if it's a Special-Special, like the July bases, the chance is already next to nothing. When you're getting albinos every litter, it's another cub less that you have a chance to get that special-special to pass. Not only is it useless on that front, but it also eliminates the chance of you obtaining a base that actually would help with breeding the base you're aiming for.

Edit 3/22
Genetics Newspost
Kudos to Nate #26405 for finding this.

This is the newspost in which Genetics were introduced. If you look a few paragraphs down, you find this quote:
aaaa.png
"Albinos can now no longer be selectively bred, and instead are a small random chance, much like a mutation. Breeding two albinos will not give you an albino unless the random chance happens. Albinos can occur in any pairing!"

I'd like to draw your attention to the last part of the first sentence. ". . . much like a mutation."

This is exactly the issue for which this thread was made. Achromia is a mutation, albino is a base. A base should not be passing like a mutation does. Not unless it is given 'special' status, and only appears within its own grouping, much like bases such as Prune or Maltese. Both bases occur rarely without a parent that carries the base, but they can occur randomly within the group of their color. If you need proof of this, I'm happy to go snatch up the little Prune baby my Anjeer and his non-prune lass made earlier this week. That random occurrence of the base is damaging to color breeders, and because it isn't even Special genetics, we have literally no use for it. To further this, by having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game is negating it's own money-maker. Mutations are, simply put, a huge part of the Lioden economy. These are mainly centered around the passable muts, but regardless, they are all selling for GB. GB is the lifeblood of Lioden, it is what keeps the game running. When you negate the functionality of mutations by simply having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game and it's makers are damaging themselves.

The reason it occurred randomly before mutations were input is because there were no genetics in place. Either way, the random chance infused with the base is useless and extremely harmful to breeders who go for color specifically. That is why this thread is here.

Edit: 5/20
RottAndArtist brings up a good point!
With the addition of Clear White to the endless list of bases Lioden has, Albino becomes even more useless. If it were combined with its group, or as Rott also suggested, had its pass rate extremely lowered, it may become more and more coveted!

It appears that the Mods have been making an attempt to counterbalance the distress around random albinos with certain updates, (ex, its use in Cloudburst breeding), but this does not make it OK to have this level of random albinos! 3.5% pass rate? That's ridiculous!!!

This is a plea to the mods, please, lets get this under control.

There may soon be a higher demand for the 'white' bases with the coming of Tigons. White Tigers could be a high demand creation due to the aesthetic. However, Clear White is a custom base. And it's a custom special base. This overrides Albinos use in this manner. By adjusting its class (special), or making it a breed only thing with a actually, genuinely low pass rate, we could see a rise in the number of people who enjoy and covet the albino base.

Also: Concha has died and was my sister's lion in the end. She was not saved due to lack of room, so her link is now dead!
If you don't support, please tell me why!


---


ALBINO PASS RATE SCRY STUDY
Official Results Document

Black Solid x Black Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Countershaded x Black Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Total Pass Rate: 4%

Cream Solid x Cream Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Cream Countershaded x Cream Countershaded
Total Rate: 0/50, 0% Albino Pass

Cream Total Pass Rate: 1%

Golden Solid x Golden Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Golden Countershaded x Golden Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Golden Total Pass Rate: 3%

Red Solid x Red Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Red Countershaded x Red Countershaded
Total Rate: 3/50, 6% Albino Pass

Red Total Pass Rate: 5%

TOTAL FINAL RESULT
Total Pass Rate: 14/400, 3.5%

It appears that Red has the highest pass rate of all, with a total 5% pass rate! This is followed by Black, then Gold, and finally Cream, with a 1% pass rate.

Even a 1% pass rate is far too high!
The HIGHEST pass rate for mutations is around 1 in 250, a 0.4% pass rate. Albino random occurance, if meant to be "like a mutation", should be at MOST a 0.5% pass rate. That's 7x less than what it is right now.



This suggestion has 1094 supports and 42 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/05/19 @ 11:35:34 by Razz {Side} (#36422)

Gutsy (#3097)


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Posted on
2018-04-24 21:35:40
At the rate albinos pop up, I'm always frustrated when I get any, so I support this.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-04-24 21:35:56
@Rowan
Thank you for the support!



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-04-24 21:39:02
Beginning the Mass Scry now
I'll be upkeeping the following Google Document with information as I scry! Once it is finished, it'll be posted on the thread.

Document



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-04-24 23:29:43
The test scry has concluded

The average pass rate for albino is a whopping 3.5%. When the most common mutations are a 0.4% chance of passing, albino has NO right to be so high. It's worst in the Red color group, passing at a 5% average. It's least in the Cream color group, passing at 1%.

I suggest a MINIMUM of a 0.5% pass rate. 1 in 200. That's still high for lioden breeders, but it would be much, much more manageable.



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Seabunny (#114144)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2018-04-25 00:13:09
Good Lord yes I support this. And I love albinos. Why? Because you CAN INDEED breed for albino. My Countershaded Red stud is the best albino breeder I've ever seen, no lies.

Additionally, I'm breeding for cloudburst. And you know what? Plenty of albinos out of those breedings. Which leads me to believe that it is indeed working how it should be genetically. That it isn't random at all.

For a base you can't "breed for", I must be exceedingly lucky.

They also continuously muck up my black based breeding project, as they always seem to be born with poor marks at bad opacities, to my breeder pool. Even three of these in a breeding project is a waste of time, effort, and sb.

So yes, please, change it. We already have achromia, we don't need this. Nothing in nature functions like this. If they are supposed to be like wild 'white lions', then that is not Achromia either. In fact, we have white as a base too. So why do we even have albinos?



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GayenaKing [Leonid
Project] (#74562)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-04-25 00:31:25
Albino was the original 'mutation' before achromia was put in, its completely redundant now and cloudburst was a weak attempt to satisfy people who hate albino. I actually hate both bases, and the base system should be consistent, cloudburst and albino don't follow standard base rules, cloudburst being seasoned and a 'common' base and albino supposedly being random, when obviously you can breed for them and certain colors throw more. You definitely can breed an albino into producing more, considering of my high stats albinos 8 cubs, 3 are albino. That's nearly half and no way a coincidence.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-04-25 00:42:53
@Seabunny
Much agreed! Thank you for the support!

@Wolfey
I believe in a later update (a friend, August #87305, found another newspost), they stated that Albino would have a higher chance of passing from albino parents. Regardless of that though, the sheer randomness at such a high rate is SO frustrating. Thank you for the support and input! I may try out an albino x albino pass rate test and then compare it to, for example, another common x common (same color) base to see if the albino pass rate is the same from albino parents as it would be from another joint pair of parents (ex, a copper x copper pairing. How many times would they give copper cubs?). <3



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Seabunny (#114144)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2018-04-25 14:18:07
@Razz, thanks!

I want to reiterate, I don't hate albinos, I know toward the end I came off as very frustrated, because I am, but I would miss albino if it went away, I like the subtle pinkness that albino has and white doesn't, and some of my very treasured lions are albinos.

I just...I want it to follow proper base rules, I'm done with the mucking about of dud albino cubs in litters where they are not genetically possible. The pass rate in red is atrocious, and I don't understand it at all. Why is it so much higher than in the actual black grouping where albino even is?

Now, if we only had albino and it functioned like albino in the wild does (achromia), then I would be perfectly okay with it being what is essentially a colored lion in a white paper bag, and showing up all over the place because that is what wild albino can do. As it currently stands, albino functions like a hidden recessive in all lions, and along with achromia that just doesn't make much sense.

So, either make achromia a heritable mutation (as it is in the wild) along with melanism, and give albino a new name. Or, just restrict albino back to its own group and we can just live with the fact that achromia is really a true albino and albino is....a lion that doesn't even follow the pigment rules for the very definition of the word genetically?



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-04-25 15:34:00
@Seabunny
I'm going to add that bit there at the bottom as a fourth suggestion. It makes a good point, and thank you for fleshing that out more. It's all good input.



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mythh [fiery is
best] (#49771)

Unholy
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Posted on
2018-04-30 21:40:43
Razz, you know I've already supported this but kudos with the scrying stone information! Great way to be more logical and provide more facts/details!

Nerf dem albino numbers, dudes.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-04-30 21:44:55
THANK U FRIEND



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Pain and Suffering (#93497)


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Posted on
2018-05-20 10:34:42
I wish for that with all my heart. Every 2nd litter has an albino in it
And it passes too, or fails while being a fail, idk.
this shitter came from a red mom&dad and threw another one. At this rate whole pride will be down to albinos as they do not give a shit about genetics.



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Edited on 20/05/18 @ 10:44:38 by Anthrax, the king of pinktopia (#93497)

Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-05-20 10:36:12
@Anthrax
Thank you for the support! I had 3 albinos born the other day. same day ;-;



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Alabai (#28971)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2018-05-20 16:08:54
I truly LOVE Albinos, but I hope with the new "Clear White" they might consider making "Albino" either a mutation (a common one) or a rare base that only pops up very occasionally in any color group. ...it would be FAB if it became super super rare, instead of super common. :( I miss the days when they were SO coveted!

With Tigons coming, I expect a lot of demand for white bases, as folks go back to trying to breed "white tiger" like lions, as I did with one of my first kings (who wasn't a hybrid of course, just a lion with tiger-like onyx marks on an albino base) ...it'd be nice to see that more rare than the throw-away that albinos are now. (not elite rare... just not throwaway.)



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-05-20 18:25:30
@Rott
That's a very good point! Thank you for the suggestion <3



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