Posted by Changing the Ember Base from Gold to Red Genetics

Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-08-10 17:33:01
In this suggestion I am arguing why I believe the Ember base should be moved from gold genetics to red genetics. For the ease of readability, I have divided this suggestion into 5 different talking points.

1. The base itself.
2. Swatches
3. The Fire Theme
4. The parallels to the Inferno base.
5. What about the Golds?


1. The base itself.
8mVs2GK.png
Just from a cursory glance from the base, most people would agree that it looks decidedly reddish. The main colour is a warm saturated reddish-brown, it has orange highlights (similar to the colour seen on the fiery base) between the whiter underbelly and the main dark colour and it has an unquestionably vibrant red dorsal line on the back. If one was to just look at the base, without any knowledge of the genetics, I would be surprised if anyone guessed it to be placed within the gold genetics. Indeed, even the name of the base suggests a red placement – embers being the glowing red-hot ashes of a fire, whether on a fuel source or floating in the air.

In the News thread, an admin representative stated that the main colour of the base is brown as part of the reason why it is in the gold genetics, however, being brown isn’t simply enough to be placed into the golden genetics group. After all, there are plenty of brown bases in red genetics (indeed, more than in the golden genetics) and these are often extremely saturated, similar to the colours seen in the Ember base. In order to illustrate this, I will compare the Ember base with the most similar bases from the red and gold genetics.

2. Swatches
In one of the responses to a user arguing that the Ember base was more red than brown, the admins stated:

“It's not just the colour that picks to brown, it's whole look that is pretty dark golden and fits to the genetic chart. It has red accents because of the factor bases, and has grey accents because of the other factor bases.”

In this section, I will respond to this argument that the Ember colour fits to the dark golden genetics by comparing it with bases from both the golden and red genetics which I feel most closely (I will respond to the ‘dark golden look’ argument in section 4).

When looking to compare bases in the red and gold genetic group with the Ember base, I used a colour wheel to more easily disseminate between the main colours of each base. Ember’s main dark reddish brown colour was used for the centre, with dots for the red and grey accent colours.
I then looked for bases in the genetic groups that are most similar to the Ember base. For the Gold genetics, I compared Ember with:
- Topaz
- Ochre
- Chatoyant
- Trophy
And for the Red genetics, I compared Ember with:
- Umber
- Ruddy
- Redwood
- Henna
- Black Rose
- Chocolate
- Auburn
- Bloodbourne
Whilst yes, I have included more bases in the red genetics than the gold bases, this is because I feel that these are the only bases in the gold genetics which can get anywhere close to being similar to the Ember base. If you want to look at other golden bases to compare, you can click here to go to the genetics page.

8mVs2GK.png

Now just from a brief look, it should be clear that the main colour making up the ember base fits the red genetics bases much more uniformly than that of the gold genetics. There are many red bases with similar colours (or colour) to the Ember shade. Indeed, even the highlights fit with many lighter red bases – such as brown, sienna and blazing. Whereas the gold bases do not generally have such a saturated dark reddish-brown as a main colour and are indeed as a rule much lighter in shades and more yellow. From my comparisons, the two golden bases which most resemble the Ember base’s main colouration are Ochre and Trophy. However, the dark brown colour in Trophy is an accent colour around its main golden shades, and whilst ochre is somewhat reddish, it is nowhere near as saturated as the Ember base.
Comparison between Ochre, Ember and Trophy to illustrate my point:
8mVs2GK.png

To conclude, the Ember base is best placed within the red genetics, as shown by the similar shades of browns and reds which are already within the red genetics, as opposed to the gold genetics which has very different shades of brown and yellow colours.

3. The Fire Theme

Earlier in the suggestion, I quoted the admins stating that the “whole look... is pretty dark golden.” I have discredited this in section 2 – showing that it bears far more similarities with the dark/medium red bases than those in the gold genetics. However, I do believe that Ember does indeed share a common ‘look’, as a so-called ‘fire base’. Within the red genetics there are several bases named after aspects of fire – these being fiery, blazing, inferno and brimstone. Ember fits very well both in theming and colouration, within this theme of fire. To illustrate:

8mVs2GK.png

A key point here is that, other than the grey accent patches, all of the colours found in the Ember base can be found within other ‘fire bases’. The Ember base has a deeply saturated brown colour similar to the one found in Brimstone, whilst having bright orange and red accents similar to the colours found in Blazing and Fiery. With this clear relation to other red bases, the placement of Ember in the gold genetics is puzzling. Especially when considering that this is not the first time that a base almost universally agreed to be of red genetics was placed in the gold genetics.

4. The parallels with Inferno in the Golden genetics
The situation with Ember is eerily similar to the issue when Inferno, which is now a red, countershaded, medium base, was once within the gold genetics.

8mVs2GK.png

With inferno, the main reasoning used to defend its inclusion within the gold genetics, rather than the red genetics, was that its yellow underfur was sufficient enough to qualify as golden. Obviously when looking at the base itself, we can see that, whilst the pale yellow is a powerful aspect of the inferno base, the varying shades of reds and browns seen in most of the base made it’s inclusion within the gold genetics ultimately incongruous and this was fixed when the last large scale genetics revamp occurred.
As such, the precedent has been set. Following on from what I have argued, there is more than enough evidence that the Ember base should follow the direction of Inferno, and have a change in genetics from dark golden to dark red. However, there then comes the issue of the current lack of desirable gold bases in the gold genetics, which I will discuss in the next section.

5. What about the Gold genetics?
Some may argue that Ember, though discordant with the gold genetics, should remain where it is as there is an absent of interesting bases within the gold genetics. This I fundamentally disagree with, for similar reasons as to why people disagreed with inferno remaining in the gold genetics.

- It does not fit with the other gold bases. This means that those who enjoy breeding golden bases will be unlikely to breed for the Ember base and those who enjoy the look of the Ember base are discouraged from breeding it due to not liking the resulting golden bases it produces.
- Ember is a combo base made with a red and black base parent. When breeding, the only golden base which can help produce more Ember bases is itself. There is no mixing with the other golden bases other than the gold bases it may currently produce, none of which greatly resemble it. Hence it would make more sense for the base to join the red genetics with the red parent bases where it can produce 'fail bases' which resemble it.

However, whilst the dark golden group may have to temporarily lose a base, there are already many user suggestions for golden bases that resemble the other golden bases far more closely and represent what people want in a golden base. For example, there is already a suggestion made for a golden base which closely resembles Ember except with colours more in line with the golden genetics (a 'smoulder' base). When there are so many rich, interesting golden base suggestions from users, there is no need to have bases that clearly belong in another group.

Conclusion
To conclude, the Ember base shares extraordinary similarities with the red genetics group such to the point that it’s inclusion in the gold genetics group is incongruous with the other bases. Thus, it should be moved into the Red Dark Countershaded Special genetics and a different base, maybe one of the many fabulous user gold base suggestions, should take its place.



This suggestion has 347 supports and 36 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/01/21 @ 14:30:29 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Starrats | G1 Bast
AHR Shreds (#46117)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 15:46:36
That's not what I'm trying to say

Look at ALL groups, Gold is to plain it NEEDS more variation and Ember is a perfect start to that.

Black has multiple, grey, white, black, brown, blue, greenish and purple and those colors are even combined in multiple bases.

Cream has multiple Peach, pink, purple, grey, white, blue, light browns, yellow and green and again also combined bases.

Red has multiple, dark and light brown, orange, yellow, white, purple, pink, blue, red and yet again also combined bases.

Gold has yellow, yellow, yellow,, yellow, yellow a bit of dull brown, a little bit of dark brown 1 pinkish red, 1 useless unbreedable green and 1 oddbal blue. Ember is just what this groups need to expand from all the boring yellows.



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yeehaw country man (#122683)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 15:50:10
It’s not about whether gold is boring or not (it’s not!).

It’s about the fact that shoving an obviously red base into the gold base group to fill a genetic spot is not the right way to go about “expand[ing] from all the boring yellows”.



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Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 15:59:15
Except it resembles the red bases far more than the gold bases. I could put Ice into the cream base to give it more variation, that wouldn't make it right. Putting Ember in the gold bases, when other red bases such as fiery, blazing and inferno arguably have more similarities with golden bases, does not make sense.
I similarly don't agree with Bast's placement, however, there are clear yellows within the base which correspond with other golden bases. Ember does not have this at all, as shown by the colour chart I provided.

Furthermore, as a combo base with red and black parents, there is no overlap with the golden genetics. Other than actually producing golden bases, the base has nothing to do with the golden genetics. And the golden bases it produced have next to no resemblance to it at all (unlike most of the red bases).

The Gold genetics do not need bases such as ember, they need bases which, though desirable, resemble the other bases within the group. By stuffing the golden genetics group with bases which stick out like a sore thumb, it only harms the overall genetics. People who like that specific base are unlikely to breed for it as it produces bases which resemble it very little (and hence will not be appealing to them), people who like the other gold bases have little interest in such a different base with little connection with the other gold bases, and the gold genetics group gets congested with bases which noticeably fit better else where and thus does not get their own fitting bases. Hence, no one is happy.

(Edit: Also there are many suggestions for golden bases which are more orange in nature yet still keep within the gold theme. Not to mention that other than the slight accent of orange around the white underbody, Ember is mostly made out of red and a dark warm reddish chocolate colour)



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Edited on 04/10/19 @ 16:04:21 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:10:18
Gold could be as boring as possible (It's not... Citrine, Asali, Angelic, Trophy, Ornament, Anubis, Fulvous, Dinar, Nacarat, Mandarin, Bast, Mobola, Gilded, and Xanthic all exist and look nothing alike) and a red still wouldn't belong. If anything it has much more than cream (no shade, ILY cream). Gold being plain and Bast being red are both painful reaches.

If you want to liven up gold, how about advocating for new more fitting and beneficial (like with actual gold components!) combo bases, or specials to help fill Gold Light in both categories or Gold Dark + Medium Solid? That would benefit the group a lot more, as no gold breeder can actually use Ember in any way without filling their pride with red and gold and then shelling out studding fees, and then not being able to breed themselves to the Ember, and etc.

There are just so many good ways to help Gold that are... not Ember. The original poster even had a wheel of colorpicks and everything, it's easy to reread and at least seriously consider their arguments.



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Starrats | G1 Bast
AHR Shreds (#46117)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:12:14
Actually that is exactly how you expand a group, you start with 1 and then you add more

Fire colors are red, orange, YELLOW and even Blue (just look at a flame). It's only logical that gold get some fire based bases to Ember opens the door to more variation in gold and I'm excited for that.


Ember is like a saturated ochre so it is not as obvious red as you claim it is.
Even your own gold swatch fits more with ember than the red swatch
Ember is literally Ochre, Chatoyant and Trophy from your own gold swatch.

I am a gold breeder and I have Ember because its a pretty gold an you can still breed more golds with it



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Edited on 04/10/19 @ 16:17:19 by Starrats | Clean Kiman Patch (#46117)

🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:21:10
ddhleh2-e5240250-b50a-4343-be06-173763b3756d.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzEyMjE0YmJjLTFlNzYtNDc0MC1hMmY5LTVjNGIxZmQ4OGNiYVwvZGRobGVoMi1lNTI0MDI1MC1iNTBhLTQzNDMtYmUwNi0xNzM3NjNiMzc1NmQucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.xzBDaJywfdlRZ5WJKNUnrX4DVlyrZsY5rL2mL_OWXMs



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yeehaw country man (#122683)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:21:16
I don’t know how you continue to argue when your argument doesn’t make any sense



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Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:36:12
I don't know where you are going with your fire point. We can agree (I hope) that a base which is mainly blue does not belong in the gold or red base. However, a base based on fire which mostly uses red colours and shades found within other red bases certainly does.

I'm not sure how you can gather that my swatches show more in similarities with the gold swatch than the red. Both in shades, colours and tone the colours within the Ember base fit far more with the red swatch than the gold swatch. Not to mention that the trophy colour which most corresponds with the ember colour is an *accent* colour, as I pointed out in that part. You can make an onyx lookalike base with a few speckles of gold throughout the base, that does not make it a gold base (as shown by nuummite).

Ember is not a more saturated Ochre. There are different tones, colours, patterns, contrasts etc being used for one. Moreover, colour saturation absolutely is a major factor in where bases are placed. There are many bases within the red genetics which could produce a cream variant if they are desaturated. Likewise for black and even gold bases. For instance, if you look at this chart you can see a large variation between the colours that you can find, from obvious yellow to gold to cream to green to black to grey. We can find all of the colours on this chart as main colours in bases within the black, yellow and cream bases. Saturation plays a key role in what colour theme emerges on a base. A base with a less saturated colour can and does belong in a different genetic group than a more saturated variant might.



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Edited on 04/10/19 @ 16:38:40 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Starrats | G1 Bast
AHR Shreds (#46117)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:40:08
I'm not arguing I'm discussing, this is a discussion, and that image is kinda rude.
If you can't discus with a person that has a different opinion. Just don't post a rude image when you don't know what to say anymore

When someone makes a point and the evidence they present is not in line with what is said. I will speak my mind and then we discuss it.

Also Ember is in the same group as Anubis, Asali and Kimanjano. So you can use Ember to breed to those to make more of those colours you can use Ember to get more of those and yes I know you can't use those to make more Embers. But that makes it more interesting.

And since it was mentioned Hellbore is a Cream Combo that you get by breeding blacks and golds, so Ember is not unique in that combo out of group breeding way.



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Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:44:47
We could put the Ice base within the gold genetics and it would help breed gold bases, that is not a good argument to place the Ice base in the gold genetics.

And Hellebore bears far more resemblance within the cream group than ember does, with other purple and cream bases populating it. The cream genetics is a place for lighter purple bases, and so Hellebore's placement makes sense, hence why the combo base is not overall an issue. There is already a place for warm fiery red bases, hence why Ember's combo requirements become even more problematic and pronounced.



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yeehaw country man (#122683)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 16:45:37
Yes, it would be nice to have something in that group to breed Kimanjano and such, but... can you not see that Ember is obviously not gold?? Lmao no matter how you toss the argument, it’s still. not gold and doesn’t belong in the gold base group



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Starrats | G1 Bast
AHR Shreds (#46117)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 17:12:19
Ice is a weird example, it is way off.

the serval spots made the point about it not being able to be used by gold breeders and I just wanted to point out how it can be used and that it is not the first outcome to be "out of group" with the bases you need to get them. I was not saying that hellebore does not belong in cream

Ember to me is a dark warm gold colour

Orange is yellow + red or in this case Gold and red so orange colors should be present in both groups, ember is the first in gold

soeone posted that image with the bright yellows to white with a hint of green but to me that's just a one sided yellow representation these warm yellows are also a part of gold group, and they fit with ember

and again I'm not arguing



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 17:23:19
There is no other Lioden base in Gold that's as bright as that palette. That's not a part of gold group, that's an unrelated palette. The closest bases to those oranges are Fiery (red), Blazing (red), and Inferno (red).



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Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 17:30:16
That doesn't change my point. To quote you,
"Ember is in the same group as Anubis, Asali and Kimanjano. So you can use Ember to breed to those to make more of those colours you can use Ember to get more of those and yes I know you can't use those to make more Embers. But that makes it more interesting."
You could replace Ember with any base and you would have the same argument. It doesn't matter whether Ember is red, blue, green, pink, purple etc, by being in the gold group it can produce gold genetic bases. Hence why this is not a good argument as to why Ember should be in the gold genetics.

Ember is a dark gold warm colour, but it is a reddish hue, hence why it more greatly resembles the red genetics. I have given evidence to this in my first post.

Many of those oranges you say are 'warmer yellows' are found within the red genetics on their medium and dark bases. From fiery to light reddish browns to light browns. Hence, it therefore helps support my argument that Ember is an ill fit within the gold genetics and thus should be moved, as we can see that many less saturated and lighter oranges are found within the red genetics thus it makes less sense for a more saturated and warmer reddish brown to be in the gold genetics.



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Edited on 04/10/19 @ 17:30:58 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Starrats | G1 Bast
AHR Shreds (#46117)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 17:42:37
That part was a responds to a diffrent argumet made by someone else that had noting to do with why it shoeld or shoeld not be in red or gold.

Ember is not a red hue its orange and orange fits both in gold and red and ember is just the first saturaded base in the gold group with a warmer orange hue. But i said that somewhere already. Ocher is also a dark warm orange gold color. Not all pinks are in 1 group not all purples are in 1 group like someone already said and so not all warm orange colors should not be stuffed in 1 group. Like orange is litterly yellow an red mixed together.



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