Posted by Changing the Ember Base from Gold to Red Genetics

Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-08-10 17:33:01
In this suggestion I am arguing why I believe the Ember base should be moved from gold genetics to red genetics. For the ease of readability, I have divided this suggestion into 5 different talking points.

1. The base itself.
2. Swatches
3. The Fire Theme
4. The parallels to the Inferno base.
5. What about the Golds?


1. The base itself.
8mVs2GK.png
Just from a cursory glance from the base, most people would agree that it looks decidedly reddish. The main colour is a warm saturated reddish-brown, it has orange highlights (similar to the colour seen on the fiery base) between the whiter underbelly and the main dark colour and it has an unquestionably vibrant red dorsal line on the back. If one was to just look at the base, without any knowledge of the genetics, I would be surprised if anyone guessed it to be placed within the gold genetics. Indeed, even the name of the base suggests a red placement – embers being the glowing red-hot ashes of a fire, whether on a fuel source or floating in the air.

In the News thread, an admin representative stated that the main colour of the base is brown as part of the reason why it is in the gold genetics, however, being brown isn’t simply enough to be placed into the golden genetics group. After all, there are plenty of brown bases in red genetics (indeed, more than in the golden genetics) and these are often extremely saturated, similar to the colours seen in the Ember base. In order to illustrate this, I will compare the Ember base with the most similar bases from the red and gold genetics.

2. Swatches
In one of the responses to a user arguing that the Ember base was more red than brown, the admins stated:

“It's not just the colour that picks to brown, it's whole look that is pretty dark golden and fits to the genetic chart. It has red accents because of the factor bases, and has grey accents because of the other factor bases.”

In this section, I will respond to this argument that the Ember colour fits to the dark golden genetics by comparing it with bases from both the golden and red genetics which I feel most closely (I will respond to the ‘dark golden look’ argument in section 4).

When looking to compare bases in the red and gold genetic group with the Ember base, I used a colour wheel to more easily disseminate between the main colours of each base. Ember’s main dark reddish brown colour was used for the centre, with dots for the red and grey accent colours.
I then looked for bases in the genetic groups that are most similar to the Ember base. For the Gold genetics, I compared Ember with:
- Topaz
- Ochre
- Chatoyant
- Trophy
And for the Red genetics, I compared Ember with:
- Umber
- Ruddy
- Redwood
- Henna
- Black Rose
- Chocolate
- Auburn
- Bloodbourne
Whilst yes, I have included more bases in the red genetics than the gold bases, this is because I feel that these are the only bases in the gold genetics which can get anywhere close to being similar to the Ember base. If you want to look at other golden bases to compare, you can click here to go to the genetics page.

8mVs2GK.png

Now just from a brief look, it should be clear that the main colour making up the ember base fits the red genetics bases much more uniformly than that of the gold genetics. There are many red bases with similar colours (or colour) to the Ember shade. Indeed, even the highlights fit with many lighter red bases – such as brown, sienna and blazing. Whereas the gold bases do not generally have such a saturated dark reddish-brown as a main colour and are indeed as a rule much lighter in shades and more yellow. From my comparisons, the two golden bases which most resemble the Ember base’s main colouration are Ochre and Trophy. However, the dark brown colour in Trophy is an accent colour around its main golden shades, and whilst ochre is somewhat reddish, it is nowhere near as saturated as the Ember base.
Comparison between Ochre, Ember and Trophy to illustrate my point:
8mVs2GK.png

To conclude, the Ember base is best placed within the red genetics, as shown by the similar shades of browns and reds which are already within the red genetics, as opposed to the gold genetics which has very different shades of brown and yellow colours.

3. The Fire Theme

Earlier in the suggestion, I quoted the admins stating that the “whole look... is pretty dark golden.” I have discredited this in section 2 – showing that it bears far more similarities with the dark/medium red bases than those in the gold genetics. However, I do believe that Ember does indeed share a common ‘look’, as a so-called ‘fire base’. Within the red genetics there are several bases named after aspects of fire – these being fiery, blazing, inferno and brimstone. Ember fits very well both in theming and colouration, within this theme of fire. To illustrate:

8mVs2GK.png

A key point here is that, other than the grey accent patches, all of the colours found in the Ember base can be found within other ‘fire bases’. The Ember base has a deeply saturated brown colour similar to the one found in Brimstone, whilst having bright orange and red accents similar to the colours found in Blazing and Fiery. With this clear relation to other red bases, the placement of Ember in the gold genetics is puzzling. Especially when considering that this is not the first time that a base almost universally agreed to be of red genetics was placed in the gold genetics.

4. The parallels with Inferno in the Golden genetics
The situation with Ember is eerily similar to the issue when Inferno, which is now a red, countershaded, medium base, was once within the gold genetics.

8mVs2GK.png

With inferno, the main reasoning used to defend its inclusion within the gold genetics, rather than the red genetics, was that its yellow underfur was sufficient enough to qualify as golden. Obviously when looking at the base itself, we can see that, whilst the pale yellow is a powerful aspect of the inferno base, the varying shades of reds and browns seen in most of the base made it’s inclusion within the gold genetics ultimately incongruous and this was fixed when the last large scale genetics revamp occurred.
As such, the precedent has been set. Following on from what I have argued, there is more than enough evidence that the Ember base should follow the direction of Inferno, and have a change in genetics from dark golden to dark red. However, there then comes the issue of the current lack of desirable gold bases in the gold genetics, which I will discuss in the next section.

5. What about the Gold genetics?
Some may argue that Ember, though discordant with the gold genetics, should remain where it is as there is an absent of interesting bases within the gold genetics. This I fundamentally disagree with, for similar reasons as to why people disagreed with inferno remaining in the gold genetics.

- It does not fit with the other gold bases. This means that those who enjoy breeding golden bases will be unlikely to breed for the Ember base and those who enjoy the look of the Ember base are discouraged from breeding it due to not liking the resulting golden bases it produces.
- Ember is a combo base made with a red and black base parent. When breeding, the only golden base which can help produce more Ember bases is itself. There is no mixing with the other golden bases other than the gold bases it may currently produce, none of which greatly resemble it. Hence it would make more sense for the base to join the red genetics with the red parent bases where it can produce 'fail bases' which resemble it.

However, whilst the dark golden group may have to temporarily lose a base, there are already many user suggestions for golden bases that resemble the other golden bases far more closely and represent what people want in a golden base. For example, there is already a suggestion made for a golden base which closely resembles Ember except with colours more in line with the golden genetics (a 'smoulder' base). When there are so many rich, interesting golden base suggestions from users, there is no need to have bases that clearly belong in another group.

Conclusion
To conclude, the Ember base shares extraordinary similarities with the red genetics group such to the point that it’s inclusion in the gold genetics group is incongruous with the other bases. Thus, it should be moved into the Red Dark Countershaded Special genetics and a different base, maybe one of the many fabulous user gold base suggestions, should take its place.



This suggestion has 347 supports and 36 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/01/21 @ 14:30:29 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-10-04 17:50:23
Please can you clear up your writing? It is honestly hard to decipher what you are trying to say.

Ember has a saturated dark brown which lends itself to the red genetics. With the red and orange accent colours, it gives it an overall reddish hue. Ochre is more of a brown colour, not an orange colour.
Not all the browns are in one genetic group either. Colder browns are found in the black group, dark and lighter warmer ones are found in the red genetics (which is where Ember's main colouration finds the most in common with). Lighter creamier browns are also found in the cream genetics.
This follows the same logic of lighter, creamier and more muted pinks being found in the cream genetics where more bright and saturated pinks are found in the red genetics. I don't see any problem with my argument here.



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Starrats | G1 Bast
AHR Shreds (#46117)

Majestic
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Posted on
2019-10-04 23:39:30
When you make orange dark it turns brown , the brown that ember has , when you make gold dark it also turnes brown, they are diffrent colors of brown but stil brown. And ember is orange brown not red brown. Like you said not all browns go in 1 group so ember DOES fit in gold because it is alto a part of that group.

Also, have you never painted? Add black paint to orange or gold and it will turn brown. Thats how you make darker colors.



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Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-10-05 04:04:15
And as the red genetics already have darker browns with red hues, then it makes sense for ember to be placed there.
As I showed on the red swatches, the main ember brown is almost identical with many of the browns there.
In other words, orange, and warm browns are a feature of the red genetics, thus it makes no sense for Ember to be in the gold genetics.



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Starrats | G1 Bast
AHR Shreds (#46117)

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Posted on
2019-10-05 04:18:16
Orange based brown hues are not red and never will be red. Orange ALSO belongs in gold. So Ember is number 1 in the gold group. and it's about time to.

Not all browns are red brown
The red brown swatch looks nothing like ember the gold brown swatch does, but I mentioned that before , I even checked in photoshop, it's not red it's literally gold orange brown



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Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

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Posted on
2019-10-05 04:40:03
And you miss my point I am making. If other bases have similar colours to the Ember base, then it belongs in the red group. Otherwise, then the point you are making is that other bases in the red group should be moved to the gold group, which I categorically disagree with.

E.g, If the Red group was renamed table and the gold group was renamed chair, then the Ember base still belongs in the table group as many other bases share a similar colour theme.



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Edited on 05/10/19 @ 04:41:46 by Blue Pigeon 🐦 (#68580)

🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-10-05 05:18:47
Dark gold orange brown sounds exactly like someone who forgot the word red describing red



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¿ (#101344)


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Posted on
2019-11-12 09:32:37
Support, absolutely.

I'm an avid gold breeder, but we don't want this. :L Besides breeding it to itself, we would need to breed them to a black or red group base if we ever wanted a chance of it passing. It just makes more sense for ember to be in the red group; I was actually shocked when I saw it was a gold. Plus, forcing it into gold isn't helping gold's popularity, either.



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Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)

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Posted on
2019-11-12 09:37:35
Complete support! This combo makes no sense from a gameplay point of view, and I believe it would be better suited as a Red Medium Countershaded Special base, since it isn't light enough to be Light, and Dark Countershaded is pretty crammed already, in comparison to its Light and Medium counterparts.



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Adriannu (#135017)

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Posted on
2019-12-21 22:04:42
I'm saying no support just because the red group already has a lot more bases then the golden group so I can't support shafting the gold group even if theoretically it makes sense.

As I have written this, the Gold group has 4 dark golden countershaded special bases including ember. The Red group has 6. So if this suggestion was approved it would go to the golds having 3 and the red having 7 which I can't in good conscience support.

As for the argument about taking it away on the basis of so many good gold suggestions, well I could make a similar argument for making more bases like ember in the gold group. So until the gold group isn't so sorely lacking in bases, I will not support stealing a base from them to give to red.



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Edited on 21/12/19 @ 22:07:23 by Adriannu (#135017)

Robin (BLM) - Gen4
Cinnabar (#171993)

Confused
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Posted on
2019-12-21 22:19:47
Thing is, this doesn't look like a gold base at all so it doesn't make sense regardless of how many bases each group has gotten.



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Adriannu (#135017)

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Posted on
2019-12-21 22:24:08
I agree that it doesn't look like a gold base at all, but that doesn't really phase me. There are plenty of bases that don't fit the group they are currently in. Honestly it would make more sense to change some of ember's factor bases around so there are at least a few more gold ones to work with. I also wouldn't mind seeing a few more oddball colors in the gold genetics group anyway since all the other groups have them as well.



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-12-21 22:51:34
Gold shouldn't settle for oddballs and misfits.



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Adriannu (#135017)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2019-12-22 00:08:57
I'm not saying it should, I'm just saying that I like a few oddballs and misfits in each group?



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🌻 the serval
spots (#98320)

Heartless
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Posted on
2019-12-22 11:18:49
The problem with that is that all gold GETS is oddballs. The only more 'gold only' golds are rare or NCL specials, and then all the specials look like Anubis, Festive, Angelic, ETC. I love all three of those but my point still stands. And then we get Green, and black bases like Labradorite, and red bases like Ember. It's not fair to keep everything weighing Gold down in Gold like we could be able to in another group because there is no 'normal' combo base in gold. There is no mild raffle base in gold. There is not a single natural applicator in Gold- at least Cream gets tons of those around November, and they have Ivory.

Ember might not have been a problem if it was the one single oddball, but everything is an oddball, and that's the low standard that Gold has to lean down to reach. We don't even have hybrid bases anymore.



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Adriannu (#135017)

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Posted on
2019-12-22 15:42:27
Ok I'll address each base you mentioned in turn.
1. Anubis: I don't see the problem with this one, it's a black and golden orange color. I can see why it is in gold.
2. Angelic, I could see an argument for this being more of a cream base, though if you ask me that kinda of opens up a whole other can of worms as to why having both cream and gold as color groups was a bad idea. I would say this one does have some gold highlights.
3. Festive: Again I could see this as being a cream base though it does at least have a lot of yellow. This goes back to my issue with gold/cream. I find the colors to be far too similar to make solid separate color groups when compared to the much more distinct black and red. Obviously it's way too late to fix that though.

I do agree that the staff should be trying to release more "gold" gold bases. It's just I'm concerned that if this suggestion is approved, the staff will swipe ember from gold and then take FOREVER to replace it, let alone give it two to make up for the loss and help it at least try to keep up with black and red. It's why I would rather they just change the factor bases and then try to actually stick with more truly golden bases in the future.




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