Posted by -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades

Katze (#3)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:33:32
Hi, everyone!

As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides:
* ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB"

Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value.

When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades.

We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time.

As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were.

Potential Solutions
* We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake.
* There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator.
* We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with.

We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on.

To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf?

In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with.

If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having.

This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well.



This suggestion has 517 supports and 40 NO supports.



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:03:48 by Katze (#3)

Anne (Sidereal)
🇵🇸 (#61013)

Prince of Terror
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:34:55
I like mad hyena's suggestion^



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Mnada (#208144)

Amiable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:35:25
the issue with a minimum sb price is that most people consider 'fodder' to be less than 5sb in worth



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Dante ~ G1 Revived
mRLC [Main] (#80013)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:35:44
I still think a flat ban on these types of trades. It doesn't stop people from attempting the challenge if they so want to, but they have to actively work to get a bargain, rather than just begging players for better stuff.



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Lucas | G1 Nefer Pie
M-Rlc (#229613)

Nice Guy
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:36:52
I believe a channel/category in TC would be alright. Of course that does bring up the whole "What exactly is a paperclip trade." You have a name for these trades what you don't have a classifiction on them and if it's like raffle, then it'd be user's choice. If they're classified by "open ended offers" Then all offer trades would be there. Not to mention people would find loopholes to get their declassified as a paperclip trade

Though the soft block could also work. Over 200 users, both new and old, have been blocked by me personally because of the trades. They clogged up the tc in my opinion

A subforum could also work. Trade-ups are like a "gift the person above you" type game in a way. Though they wouldn't be put in the game section, but rather a challenge section.

There's so many ways to figure this out




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Anne (Sidereal)
🇵🇸 (#61013)

Prince of Terror
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:37:04
@Rufus yea true I've seen fodder for 5 SB which is amazingly helpful to some of us when low on SB. Which is why id rather see this entire thing banned and done for.



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Dante ~ G1 Revived
mRLC [Main] (#80013)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:37:17
@Mad Hyena that was my thought. People could still make fodder trades with a buyout of 5sb for example



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Fading Angel (G2 2k)
[Frozen] (#81854)

Holy
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:37:18
I don't think there should be a sb minimum in trades.
1use food averages 5sb.
Explore decor like bugs average a value of 5sb.
1use toys average a value of 5sb.
Muddy items average 5sb.

There's plenty that's under 10sb. And nothing has a set in stone price. For the most part



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Casey (Hiatus) (#52546)


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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:37:54
I like Mad Hyena's suggestion too
Maybe even a 5SB minimum in the TC would be better, rather than 10SB? But either way I think would help a little bit. Some people might be willing to sell 5SB for something as simple as a large rock, for example. At least that has a little bit more worth than 1SB lol



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:40:20 by Casey|G2 13BO Incense Felis (#52546)

Mnada (#208144)

Amiable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:38:31
but there is no actual way to ban them, mods can't assume what someone's trade means based on the word's it's phrased. I agree with more blacklisting phrases like '1sb to hybrid' because it does clearly indicate a warrant for a higher value than what the majority sees an item as. They should be considered forum games, and as such should be in one of those sub-categories [we should have the feature to block it, and any other forum from showing up to us; this would mean any message with the link that leads to that category isn't visible to us?]



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Bill[G2 Dhahabi
Primal] (#169289)

Good Natured
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:38:46
I’d like the ability to have these joke trades in another tab if the trading center.
I’d also like the ability to sell lions in my branch.. but that is another can of worms for another time.



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Lily | Quad G2 Ferus
Glass (#200330)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:39:38
@Fading Angel (G1 5k Pearl) (#81854) oh heck I wasn’t aware of that, thank you for letting me know!

In that case, if there’s no true way to differentiate between a challenge trade, where the user is relying on the goodwill of strangers for a overtrade (e.g what can I get for 1sb). And a serious trade (e.g, selling 1 small meat chunk for 2sb). Then we must look at intent, but intent is hard to figure out and sounds impossible to moderate.

In that base, sadly maybe a softblock would be the best, as people can decide for themselves if someone else’s trade is a paper clip or serous. And they can always unblock them later. I guess people would just have to live with not seeing that specific person’s trades for a little while ^^



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Khajiit {G1 Leonid
Magpie} (#68800)

Cursed
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:39:43
@ Sunning Mandrill (#102505)

Darling... My blocklist at the time when I first posted in the original suggestion had 20 people. Right now I am way over 200, probably on the way to 300 just from blocking the challenges and I get to block 10+ people A DAY. It is not slowing at all. And even if it is - it will pick up again, like most trends on here.



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Dante ~ G1 Revived
mRLC [Main] (#80013)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:40:05
@Mods - what if these sort of *clear* begging/trade up trades were banned in the rules and mods only have to check it if it's flagged. It should be relatively easy to see when someone is stating they want more than what it's worth. E.g., 1sb to gon, offer "more" than its worth, etc.

By contrast if someone is just offering a low value item, and rejects offers until they get one they personally deem more valuable, it doesn't harm anyone.



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sky [g3 3xros ferus
stellar] (#137813)


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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:40:58
I think that creating a subforum would only exacerbate this headache. Best to implement the “block trades by user” option.

Creates a natural punishment for users abusing the reading center + directly helps those most affected/annoyed



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:42:34 by skyfalls [g2 ferus stellar] (#137813)

Mnada (#208144)

Amiable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 10:41:04
trust me, the trend will pick up in december, always does.



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