Posted by So... we have to talk about clean lions

Craion (#96081)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:20:24
1. WE NEED CHANGE
The state the game is at about inbreeding is rather deplorable... Even people that are into having 'clean' lions can't agree to what clean means. Making it a feature in the game would help this talk die down and unite most people on what should be considered bad. There will always be radicals... but apeasing most is better than annoying all.

However: there has been plenty discussions on how the devs should change things and at this point I just don't see it happening. what I'm here to talk about it how leaving it for the community to decide how to deal with has led to a pretty bad point that we are in right now.

Let me clarify what I mean.

2. WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE?

Having a clean line is not an easy task... specially if you don't have a short number of genations. Is a G24 less clean than a G2? No, but they are harder to keep track of who to breed with. To a clean breeder, it's just easier to discard them.

What about NCL's and Chased lionesses? Stock for breeding: they don't have a past, so use them and discard them. Sometimes lionesses and cubs are even chased for the slim hope of coming back as a chased lioness. Cuz then, only then, would they have a value.

Does that not seems... weird? Doesn't it leave a weird taste in your mouth? Inbreeding is not cool, sure. But to what point?

It also leaves a bad taste in the mouth that a lion can't be considered clean if there is any instance of inbreeding ever in their line. In real life, something can always be cleaned up later on with the right crossbreeding. Inbreeding is even used in efforts osf conservation, with the idea that, once there is enough organisms, crossbreeding will fix everything that is needed to.

So what if this lion had an inbreed ancestral 10 generations before? Does it make all does 10 generations of crossbreeding any less important? Do you guys not know how DNA work?

This line is DIRTY, so it can't ever be clean again.

Do you see what it sounds like? Do I have to spell it out?

3. MORALITY

People that have clean lions feel moraly superior. After all, they took the care to not inbreed their lions. But does the ends justify the means?

Do I want to inbreed my lions? No. But there is a limit. I'd be ashamed if I ever have to use NCL or chased just to "clean a line".

4. SO WHAT DO WE HAVE?

I don't know... When I started writing this, I did not care that much about this, I hadn't stopped to really think about it... To some, it may seem stupid to overanalyze a random online game, but the way this has been handled, by all sides, has left a bad taste in my mouth.

At this point, clean and dirty kinda feel derogatory to me. Should you be prideful of having an inbred lion? No. But I am just not sure about where the line is drawn.



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:41:07
i think it's just... player preference? i haven't heard of people scrapping over it for a while, but i know it did use to be a big deal. but. nowadays most people do seem united over "clean" meaning no inbreeding. there are folks who hold that clean means no big four, and they're valid, whatever floats their boat, same as the folks who say it means no inbreeding.

i've seen some people proud of having inbred lions. they think its funny to see how many notices of inbreeding they can rack up. as someone doing a project, where inbreeding is the game, i think its a little amusing myself. that doesn't mean we condone irl inbreeding. but it's a game, and i don't think we should be relating real-life morals to pixel lions. mind you, that doesn't mean i think it's stupid to overanalyze. i think discussion is great! but there are so many issues you can fall into by applying real-life morals into the game that, in the end, it might just be more stressful than fun, hahah.

people chase pixel lions. people abandon pixel cubs they don't like. people kill pixel lions, just for a shiny big number on the karma board. and, like, chase your bliss man, its a game!!!! if big numbers make your brain go brr, go for it. i think a lot of it is the same for short-gen clean breeding. seeing a short heritage with no annoying bold text at the bottom makes me happy! but i have also had and adored inbred lions just for their aesthetics, and in the end, it doesn't bother me

i think clean and dirty are what you make of them, and i guess i can't see the big deal, but i don't discourage talking about it. to me, they're just words for lions in a game about breeding where people made up a market for heritage.



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Edited on 21/12/22 @ 14:41:26 by 🐄 l e o n (#208511)

InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:41:09
I think plenty of people want a clean lion because it can make the game harder and thus more satisfying when you get something clean that is good.

You have to look out further to prevent them becoming dirty, so more studs are then used. You are working towards something that is harder to get, you have more goals. If you get something in this game that is rare and is clean, your lion/ess is worth even more and took you slightly more effort to get!

Lionesses are indeed chased because they are dirty, but that means more players will find themselves a nice chased! Or.. any chased lionesses at all, potentially. I mean, why chase a lioness if you could just give it away? If you don't care about inbreeding and neither did anybody else, less chased lionesses would exist

I haven't seen many people treating another very poorly for having a dirty lion and neither have I seen anybody treated overly superior for having a clean one, but then I don't go looking for that stuff.
I'm not sure morals are too much of a reason people breed clean lions, but that is certainly a part of it!

I love how Lioden breeds for clean lions because it gives more to work towards and may be in slight part why Lioden is so fun to play! Difficulty, in my opinion, is what makes something worth doing!



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:47:48
@InconspicuousRat
in my two, close-ish to three years here, the most i've had someone say to me is "ew, she's dirty" and I'm pretty sure they were like ten years old. i really enjoy the short-gen no-inbreeding look, but i've had and adored both dirty and clean lions! and when I'm done with my project, i'll probably switch back to mostly clean breeding because it just turns more profit, for better or for worse. but i also like it! again, it's more of a challenge!

and also, like you said, it uses more other studs if the lion is your main lion's kid, and it diversifies aesthetics! fun!

but yeah, i don't go looking for drama anymore, but i haven't seen it. heard about it in years past, but not much anymore.



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Edited on 21/12/22 @ 14:48:03 by 🐄 l e o n (#208511)

InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:51:42
@l e o n

There's just something about the lack of much in a heritage that just makes me feel "this is a good lion."



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snowmew [G1 14BO
Abyssinian] (#63212)


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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:54:46
lol its not that deep. people are allowed to have challenges and preferences in their fictional pixel lion's pixel family trees. its not hurting anyone



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:57:21
i like clean breeding because it tickles a little spot in my monkey brain that brings me joy. i guess it's the small things



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potatoooooo (#152201)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:08:19
Yeah, i really don’t get why you’re so caught up over this. It’s player preference. Clean breeding isn’t the ony thing that affects how lions sell - Scoundrel has always sold better than Ruffian, for example. It’s not that deep, we don’t ‘need change’ like it’s some big dramatic issue.

And Why would you be ashamed if you EVER had to use a ncl or a chased just to keep a clean line? Sounds like you’re the one feeling morally superior because… you don’t use lions you found in explore? What if you just like glass eyes or dhahabi base or something? It also doesn’t leave a weird taste in my mouth to use chased lionesses, no? I’ve found a moonstone, an MR, a double rosette. I bred all of them.

And clean and dirty are CERTAINLY not derogatory. They’re pixel lions. I think that you’re just too caught up over this.



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InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:12:40
I don't believe that's what they were saying, but anyways it's good for people to discuss things with each other, and with Lioden, it's part of the community!



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potatoooooo (#152201)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:15:40
They literally state that we need change, using ncls leaves a bad taste in their mouth, people with clean lines feel morally superior, they’d feel ashamed if they ever had to use a ncl to maintain a ‘clean line’ and clean and dirty are derogatory at this point, word for word.



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InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:17:53
Lemme re-read it rq



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:20:12
i think clean and dirty could have slightly better alternatives, but i don't have any suggestions, especially any that would stick, as those words are embedded in lioden culture. and in the end, they refer to fantasy lions, not like, real people.



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InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:24:08
@potato

Ah, you were right. I'm sorry, I either forgot or didn't understand their wording after I read it.



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Craion (#96081)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:44:54
Ok, I'm back... Let's talk about some things that got lost somewhere.

- I did not mean that plain using NLC or CHASED is inherently bad. I said using them FOR cleaning a line and just that feels wrong to me. Do I use NCL and CHASED? I do, I lot. For that reason? No. Am I morally superior for that? No, and I'm sorry that I worded it wrong.

- I have been around for quite a while in this game... and, indeed the discourse of 'wether a lion is clean' has had worse moments. I abstained myself from it back them, but I didn't use to play much back then anyway. Recently, however, I have seen people talk about these things in a light of 'clean lions being superior because they are not inbred' and I've even seen people go like 'yeah, bring me dirty lions, I'll kill them to rid the game of them'. I swear I'm not exagerating, but I cannot proove.

By no means do I think you shouldn't have clean lions. By no means I think you shouldn't use ncl. By no means do I think you should have dirty lions, or not have them. My main objetive was to make a point about how 'making a clean lion' shouldn't be seen as inherently good just because you are avoiding to inbreed them.

What leaves a bad taste in my mouth truely is the hypocrisy of some people.

Another point I do bring and will stand by it, however, is how the terms are used. Yes, games have weird challenges to make it spicier, sometimes... but a dirty lion that can never be cleaned again sound rather bad, does it not? To me it does.



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:53:32
again, i dont think dirty is the nicest word! but i don't think there's anything to be done about it, and still, at the end of the day, it's not a lion, it's a drawing of a lion. usually one that's pink or blue or sparkly.

some people really don't care about owning inbred lions. it doesn't matter if the lion can never be clean again. sadly our lion drawings get old and die, and in that time, maybe it's found someone who loves it anyway or it goes the way of chasing or karma board.

i don't know. i cant speak on the vitriol that might be going around, but they're just... lovely drawings of lions. and i quite love my lion drawings, inbred or not



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Edited on 21/12/22 @ 15:54:10 by 🐄 l e o n (#208511)

potatoooooo (#152201)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 15:58:07
I just wanted to point out that it’s not actually clean breeders who originally came up with dirty! Non-clean breeders, when the term ‘clean’ and ‘squeaky clean’ came around, came up with the idea that if we are clean, they must be dirty which I believe wasn’t actually the intention of original clean breeders, who just wanted a challenge (similar to hard mode)

And also I am a clean breeder, but most people aren’t that harsh. I own dirty, long line and big 4 lions, and many other clean breeders do, they just try to stay clean.



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