Posted by So... we have to talk about clean lions

Craion (#96081)

Sapphic
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Posted on
2022-12-21 14:20:24
1. WE NEED CHANGE
The state the game is at about inbreeding is rather deplorable... Even people that are into having 'clean' lions can't agree to what clean means. Making it a feature in the game would help this talk die down and unite most people on what should be considered bad. There will always be radicals... but apeasing most is better than annoying all.

However: there has been plenty discussions on how the devs should change things and at this point I just don't see it happening. what I'm here to talk about it how leaving it for the community to decide how to deal with has led to a pretty bad point that we are in right now.

Let me clarify what I mean.

2. WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE?

Having a clean line is not an easy task... specially if you don't have a short number of genations. Is a G24 less clean than a G2? No, but they are harder to keep track of who to breed with. To a clean breeder, it's just easier to discard them.

What about NCL's and Chased lionesses? Stock for breeding: they don't have a past, so use them and discard them. Sometimes lionesses and cubs are even chased for the slim hope of coming back as a chased lioness. Cuz then, only then, would they have a value.

Does that not seems... weird? Doesn't it leave a weird taste in your mouth? Inbreeding is not cool, sure. But to what point?

It also leaves a bad taste in the mouth that a lion can't be considered clean if there is any instance of inbreeding ever in their line. In real life, something can always be cleaned up later on with the right crossbreeding. Inbreeding is even used in efforts osf conservation, with the idea that, once there is enough organisms, crossbreeding will fix everything that is needed to.

So what if this lion had an inbreed ancestral 10 generations before? Does it make all does 10 generations of crossbreeding any less important? Do you guys not know how DNA work?

This line is DIRTY, so it can't ever be clean again.

Do you see what it sounds like? Do I have to spell it out?

3. MORALITY

People that have clean lions feel moraly superior. After all, they took the care to not inbreed their lions. But does the ends justify the means?

Do I want to inbreed my lions? No. But there is a limit. I'd be ashamed if I ever have to use NCL or chased just to "clean a line".

4. SO WHAT DO WE HAVE?

I don't know... When I started writing this, I did not care that much about this, I hadn't stopped to really think about it... To some, it may seem stupid to overanalyze a random online game, but the way this has been handled, by all sides, has left a bad taste in my mouth.

At this point, clean and dirty kinda feel derogatory to me. Should you be prideful of having an inbred lion? No. But I am just not sure about where the line is drawn.



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:00:26
hey, i didnt know that! lioden history lesson, huh?



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ᴋᴏʀᴇ ⭑ G2
decadawn pie ♚ (#110895)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:01:58
im just surprised it isnt an in-game mechanic at this point. i couldn't care less (personally) whether a lion is clean or dirty, but i know there are people that play HEAVY for only owning and breeding clean lions. that's not an issue at all, setting that personal challenge for yourself is all for the sake of having fun and making things a little more difficult.

i'm curious if it'll effect the trading market more than it already has eventually? will dirty lions eventually end up worthless no matter their markings / mutations / beauty?
i'm surprised inbreeding isn't an in-game aspect of upping rates of lethal mutations already, maybe it hasn't been implemented because they feel weird about encouraging it??




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InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:03:38
If they made a higher chance of lethals for dirty lions, the people trying to only have clean lions would probably have a harder time finding them I guess?



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:05:19
i know its on their rejected suggestions right now, but I'm not sure why exactly. i think a part of the reason could be that they wanna keep a balance, yeah! not so heavily favor one over the other.



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InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:05:47
Makes sense!



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potatoooooo (#152201)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:09:18
Clean/dirty is something that lioden has made it pretty clear they won’t touch, it’s just a fun challenge. Just like they won’t favour hard mode or other breeding projects (like upping lethal chances for lions with Nimravus marks or something), they don’t favour clean/dirty. Dirty lions are already worth less than clean (that said, I don’t ever see dirty leopons or DUs ever truly losing their worth).



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ᴋᴏʀᴇ ⭑ G2
decadawn pie ♚ (#110895)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:10:38
i do understand where OP is coming from, i just started playing pretty recently (about two/three months ago) and the dirty vs clean debate feels like unspoken teams sometimes.

off topic but @ 🐄 l e o n (#208511) i love your icon so much, its so so cute



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Craion (#96081)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:11:31
I mean, we can't really get rid of bad terms in real life, I don't expect people to stop using them here... I just have the opinion that it's a really bad choice of word, but even changing that it would still bother me that a 'dirty line' can not be reverted to a 'clean line' even after generations of crossbreading. As I said, in real life, it is only considered inbreeding up to 5 generations.

And I get what you all are coming from... It is a challenge, I've done similar challenges in other games, I just got fed up with the attitude of some people and, when I stopped to think about it, that's where I got.

I have to say, though... back in the days, it used to be harder to make clean lions. Now, there are so many clean kings and queens it doesn't even feel like much of a challenge to just keep short-G lines. Though I never quite got into clean breeding, it's not like I never did them.



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InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:11:43
I'm a little bias because I am a clean breeder, but I really hope Lioden doesn't up mutation chances for clean/dirty!



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:12:40
yeah totally. leopons are very valuable for passing on their MR for nice multi-rosettes and DUs are ..... DUs, there's so much you can do with that LOL. a lot of people i know use them for project breeding, so more than likely the end result is getting kinged and repped anyhow



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Craion (#96081)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:14:27
Oh, yeah, this debate about how they should implement inbreeding things in the game is a lost battle... to me, it could be good for both sides, if they didn't just implement things about lethals, but I don't even mess with those suggestions, as it is just a waste of time



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:17:04
i think the mutie market is pretty crashed already, at least as i far as I'm aware. i don't do much shopping anymore. adding an inbreeding boost would just make it woooorse.

more people get fancy lions? yeah!!!! people get a little grumpy because their market is going down? ..... yeah



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Craion (#96081)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:19:16
But think of it this way.... you may not need to give a boost. You could take a little from one side and put that in the other.
Same goes for the fertility thing. Fertility alter the chance of mutations.... but there used to be a lot mor VLF importance back in the days. I don't see that so much right now



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InconspicuousRat (#240797)

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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:19:34
I used to be entirely fine with dirty/clean breeding (I still am as long as it's not me doing it, like I am 100% fine with others doing it)

When I started clean breeding, however, my brain immediately didn't like dirty lions anymore. I don't quite understand why.



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🤎 leon | semi
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Posted on
2022-12-21 16:23:20
@InconspicuousRat i mostly favor clean breeding when it comes to my shiny things. like when i was doing my combo breeding way back when, and that i still hope to continue one day? yes!!! my rma projects that make me want to cry? yes!!!

but when it comes to average pride members, my first thing is aesthetic usually! not that I'm doing any average pride members rn, I'm waist-deep in this silly project hahah

but i get what you mean! i used to be the same way. i grew out of it myself, but as long as you don't insult other folks, which you're not, its plenty fine to keep that solid preference!



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Edited on 21/12/22 @ 16:24:18 by 🐄 l e o n (#208511)







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