Posted by Why Does Clean Breeding Suddenly Matter? (BC Lions

Jack | G2 Jellyfish
Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 08:52:04
Hello!! Genuine question here

Before I went on hiatus from Lioden, clean breeding definitely did exist. But... coming back to the game, it feels so bizarre- it feels like lions can hardly sell if they're *not* clean??? It's way more extreme than it used to be. For a gameplay mechanic that doesn't affect anything, I don't understand why?

To clarify, I used to care about the lore of my lions A LOT. And for that reason, I wouldn't inbreed them within my own pride. Not a choice that matters whatsoever to gameplay, it just avoided me having to explain that in my lore. But I'm seeing lions classified as "dirty" even if you have to go back a few generations just to get the "There's ___ possible instances of inbreeding" mention in their heritage. How does that matter to lore, they're so far removed that your lions wouldn't know of them?? You can just pretend it's not there, basically

Again I hope this doesn't come across as rude... just confused. Very confused.

(And a tad frustrated, because I'm a beauty breeder 100%. But it's difficult to get lions for my breeding projects, because if they're clean-lined, they're usually pretty plain. If they're dirty, I know it'll be a pain to sell their cubs for seemingly no reason. If they're clean-lined AND pretty, they're too expensive to just buy as a breeder. I feel like this problem would be just as bad for stats breeders, but I'm not too familiar with that area)

So yeah, just asking the community... why is there suddenly such a huge emphasis on a gameplay mechanic that has existed as long as breeding itself has, has no effect on the game, and is *still* considered just as bothersome if you have to go back a few generations just to see it?

((I do understand a level of discomfort if the "there's __ possible instances of inbreeding" like, right on your lion's page, but after a few generations I see no reason why the dirty line couldn't be considered "bred out" and no longer a concern))
((I mean. I'm sure humans are pretty inbred if you go back far enough. Like, every single person with blue eyes has a common ancestor. But most of us aren't considered inbred because as far back in our family history as is relevant to us, we don't see it. Hope the comparison makes sense to illustrate my point of dirty breeding being 'bred out' and shouldn't matter if we can't immediately see it))


Edit: I guess my proposal here, if we're trying to solve a problem, is a "bred-out clean" (or whatever you'd call it) community where we consider lions clean if there's no inbreeding immediately on their page. Yk. Get a lil movement going. Or at least sell to each other prices we agree are fair for what we'd consider clean.
Maybe if we see the tag "BOC" or "BC" (for bred-clean) that means it's clean-enough for those who agree?

Edit: Clan making in progress!!
Lions with the FIRST PAGE of their heritage completely clean, but may not be clean further down the line, will be tagged as BC, meaning bred-out clean, or bred-to-clean, or simply bred-clean. Idk exactly the long form, but either way, acronym is BC. So feel free to look for BC on the Trading Center as a tag.

This will be beneficial to breeding projects (won't make things Too easy, you can't inbred within the same page over and over until you get like, identical lions, nono. But still keeps a fair amount of challenge without needing to find a lioness that's completely clean and probably therefore plain or too expensive), the market (there's way too hard of a divide between dirty and clean right now), and those who value clean-breeding for a sense of "look what I did, with my own line!" can still keep the clean tag for themselves.

Real-life source: "For practical purposes, if two mated individuals have no common ancestor within the last five or six generations, their progeny would be considered outbreds." this is about the length of the first page of heritage in Lioden, so it adds up!!



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Edited on 15/03/23 @ 09:26:45 by AimPyre (#98461)

Attic of The Sky (#12149)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:14:25
I like bred-out clean. Or out-crossed (The definition of out-cross is literally breed (an animal or plant) with one not closely related)? If you do make a clan for that I would suggest making a coefficient system or something? If ppl have a number or tier to go by maybe they'll see the lion has been out-crossed enough that it isn't inbred anymore.



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Edited on 15/03/23 @ 09:19:09 by Attic of The Sky (#12149)

Jack | G2 Jellyfish
Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:17:58
I like the idea of calling it Bred-out Clean or Bred-to-Clean... either way, the acronym could be simplified to "BC Lions" for easy identification and tagging in the TC. Any lion labelled BC means that within the first page of their heritage, there is no inbreeding (optional: no sign of the big 4, since it matters to some people, but I don't consider that a strict rule... plus it'd be hard to find the big 4 on anyone's first page anyways, they're ancient and haven't been studs for a very, very long time)

Planning on making a clan!! I actually just did but I screwed up the description LMAO going to mod box to see if they can fix it, didn't realize there'd be quotations already there



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Attic of The Sky (#12149)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:25:23
I tried googling how out-crossed an animal needs to be in order to not be considered in bred, I found this:

"For practical purposes, if two mated individuals have no common ancestor within the last five or six generations, their progeny would be considered outbreds." (Tis from a paper about farm animals tho.)

That's basically just the first heritage page, so yeh that would realistically work I think. Seems reasonable to me. Idk.

Edit:
I'm just gonna throw this in here too:

"So, in terms of health, a COI less than 5% is definitely best. Above that, there are detrimental effects and risks, and the breeder needs to weigh these against whatever benefit is expected to gained. Inbreeding levels of 5-10% will have modest detrimental effects on the offspring."

More google things. Idk if it helps. But I find this fascinating so I thought I'd share.



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Edited on 15/03/23 @ 09:28:09 by Attic of The Sky (#12149)

Jack | G2 Jellyfish
Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:32:17
Thank you!!! Added quote to the main post!!!



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Ukame Tsunami [G1,
Project] (#98263)

Confused
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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:40:00
Welcome back! I also went on hiatus a few years ago, and either clean breeding wasn't as prevalent around that time or I just didn't care about it. But I came back after about a year(?) - when new accounts were in the 200k's - and it was definitely picking up in popularity. It does seem to be the majority though.

I do largely prefer breeding clean, but for my own project I'm not picky about my breeders until it's closer to its completion stage ^^ For my own reasons, I enjoy keeping track of heritage length, so I like buying lions with short heritage and keeping my own main lion a G1, to avoid accidental inbreeding if they share an ancestor.

I can't explain the community's reasons, but since you can trace the heritage beyond the first page in a tangible way, that prevents inbreeding from being bred out. I do know of a few players that would consider it bred out but they are a small minority. Because of that, a non-inbred lion will sell for more as you can't reverse a currently inbred lion.

Part of it could be just that a lot of inbred lions are distantly related to the same lions high up in their heritage, known as the "big 4". These kings were very popular in their time and had a lot of cubs. Not so groundbreaking now, but lions NOT related to them in some way were more rare until clean breeding really took off.


Sorry if I lost track of any point I tried to make. I typed this out over several different periods of time lol. (Also, we are almost ID# twins :D)



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king crow | g1
plumage nrlc (#64045)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:42:47
well a lion is dirty no matter how far back into its heritage the inbreeding shows up. i think clean breeding has more to do with aesthetics than any real practicality - a short, clean heritage looks better than a long, messy one.

also remember how clean breeding originally started; hard mode. it makes sense that lions who are clean would be worth more as a result of how much work it might've taken for them to be clean in the first place. especially for muties and combo based-lions.

as for why it's suddenly gotten so big... no idea. i guess it's just a trend that everybody's jumped onto. i have no trouble selling dirty lions myself, but seeing as how i don't really care much about making profits vs just freeing up space when i need it, i suppose i'm biased on that front. i have no idea what the market is like for more expensive muts either, like hybrids, dwarfs, newer pies/patches etc.



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Jack | G2 Jellyfish
Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:42:51
Almost ID twins!!

Mhm fair fair, and that's the big difference between "BC" (bred-out clean, or outbred) lions as we're calling them, and *clean* lions, since you Can tell the difference if you choose to go back far enough



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Jack | G2 Jellyfish
Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:44:20
Also, what do you guys think is the clearer term? Should we be calling them "outbred' (OB) or "bred-clean" (BC) lions???

BC is a nicer looking acronym so I'm biased nfksfnk but idk- which is clearer to you guys?



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Attic of The Sky (#12149)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:47:41
When I see outbred I think most ppl wouldn't think of out crossed. Bred clean is as it suggests, it was bred to a cleaner standard.



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Ukame Tsunami [G1,
Project] (#98263)

Confused
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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:51:16
How about NIPTFP: Not Inbred Past The First Page :v

Reminds me of Flint's machine in Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, the FLSFDFR or whatever he acronym'd it.



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Jack | G2 Jellyfish
Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:52:33
@Bandit I like it, but looking for something shorter so it's easy to acronym on the TC without running out of space!!

@Attic Sounds good!! We'll keep it as BC



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Attic of The Sky (#12149)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:52:41
NIPTFP is straight to the point and says exactly what it means. I like it. Either way tho.



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Edited on 15/03/23 @ 09:53:04 by Attic of The Sky (#12149)

Attic of The Sky (#12149)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:55:33
FPC? First page clean? Just spit balling, it's short.



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Ukame Tsunami [G1,
Project] (#98263)

Confused
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Posted on
2023-03-15 09:55:39
It was mostly a joke suggestion x) I can't ignore inbreeding anywhere in the heritage due to my own lion "sorting" methods, so I don't think I have a horse in this race unfortunately ^^



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Jack | G2 Jellyfish
Preon (#98461)


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Posted on
2023-03-15 17:57:52
A Clan Has Been Created!!

And, woah, you guys joined quick. I didn't even announce it yet. Thank you!!!!!!!! <3 <3 <3

I'll be making a new thread for this clan to share sales forms that are "BC friendly" (however you'd word that) and hopefully through trades in TC we'll make the BC label a clear distinction for those interested!

Click Here!



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