Posted by Figuring out the rosette / how to triple your odds

Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-13 12:15:31
***all information in this thread is due to change, i am testing thousands of cubs every day and so unexpected results do happen.


FINDINGS SO FAR:




You have a 1/300 chance to breed ANY random rosette (except shaded, soft, bushveld, or briar)
But if your king has a certain marking, you get a SECOND 1/300 roll for whatever shape that marking is associated with

so essentially, there's a 1/2 chance the random rosette a king pops out is related to no factors whatsoever. But the other half is dictated by some trait. this is evident in every single test, half the rosettes make no sense but the other half follows a strict pattern. That might be what's been to elusive about them, throwing off so many people.


things that give you a second roll:
feline markings(for heavy and inverted heavy)
Mane markings(for shaded)
Unders markings (for soft)

things that REDUCE your chance:
Margay markings (cut your chances somewhere between 1/2 or 1/3)
Margay will override your total boosts to 0.2-0.1% no matter what markings your king has.
---

Short: Even if you do meet the criteria to spawn a certain rosette type, there's a 50% chance the rosette spawned will be unrelated. All inverted rosettes, the original rosette shape, and heavy rosettes can be spawned without any criteria. Example: Your king has a mane marking- half his RR cubs will be shaded rosettes and the other half could be inverted.

Inverted rosettes are completely random- including their shape. You don't have to meet the criteria for a shaded rosette to spawn an inverted shaded rosette.
It is possible to control the color of a RR but it isn't guaranteed. If the feline/mane/unders marking is dark, it will spawn more dark rosettes. If the feline/mane/unders is gold, it will spawn more gold rosettes.



Combining all criteria traits will enable you to produce all rosette types with a 0.9% spawn rate.(Feline carries the 0.9% spawn rate, you can combine it with the other shapes to boost your odds)

---
The criteria


Criteria Shaded, Soft, Bushveld, Briar

No Criteria Rosette, All Inverted, Heavy, Most Colors


--

Shaded Requires one parent to have a mane marking

Soft Requires one parent to have a marking with "under" in the name. Includes Lace and Siamese so far.

Bushveld Requires one parent to have a green base, excludes Senegal and Bushveld Shaded

Briar Requires one parent to have a 'white' marking, includes vitiligo

Heavy Boosted by Feline markings, but can occur randomly

Heavy and heavy inverted can be boosted, but they can show up in any breeding
Shaded MUST have a mane marking
Soft MUST have an unders marking (includes lace)
Bushveld MUST have a green-based parent (Excludes Senegal, excludes shaded bushveld)
Mottled is inherited only of course
Briar MUST have a parent with a white marking. This includes inherently white markings like the BO vitiligos.

Roll order: Random rosettes are the first markings to roll, even able to spawn over gnawrocked markings. If markings had a roll order like mutations did, they would be the hybrid roll. Using ochre powders and leopard tails at the same time is completely safe because of it,
You can only spawn 1 random rosette per cub

Disproved theories:


"Cat-like" markings do not increase your odds. In fact, some lower your odds
Base does not contribute to the rosette's color (excluding bushveld)
Your king doesn't require certain markings to spawn a random rosette in general. A completely markingless pairing can still produce one
Having multiple criteria markings does not increase your odds even more. Lioden only runs a single "true/false" check on whether your king has it or not.
Day vs Night breeding does not impact your chances

Unconfirmed trends



If its possible to dictate the slot of a RR via a marking
If the Unders requirement includes ALL underside related markings or only a select group (it is known that lace can produce soft despite not having unders in the name)


Random Rosette Bugs Found


- Briar/Bushveld shaded rosettes can appear without their criteria being met (likely a bug with criteria transferring to the new shape)
- Senegal is not considered a green-base yet, so it can't spawn Bushveld

Markings that do not affect RRs


- Most listed markings have only been tested once, so some may be added or removed if a second test occurs.
- Lace, mottled vents, siamese, feline unders,

Test 1 - control


 

Test 2 - feline boost


 

Test 3 - Lace boost


  

Test 4 - Onyx boost


 

Test 5 - Unders boost


 

Test 6 - multiple felines


 

Test 7 - Combining Onyx and Feline


 


Test 8 - Testing Unders again


 

Test 9 - Testing Shaded


 

Test 10 - All three



 


Trouble-shooting



Help! I produced a rosette that didn't follow the patterns in the post!

- Please take time to read it again, since there are A LOT of ifs, ands, and buts. Please consider the fact that testing is still underway, we have established a ton of new info but not everything.

Common issues: I produced a shaded rosette without a mane marking parent?
Note: Briar shaded and Bushveld shaded follow different patterns than normal, your rosette is likely one of those colors.

Please do not submit records of rosette cubs, the chance of either an altered parent or tampered rosette are too high for us to use them. We want to keep testing as close to the verifable game mechanics as possible.



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Edited on 15/05/24 @ 15:18:48 by Zaba (#296262)

Bluebell [10xRos |
20xBO | G1] (#263841)


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Posted on
2024-03-17 21:18:26
Oh that's interesting! I didn't know their spawns were that prioritised!



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BravoButts (#455960)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2024-03-18 21:19:29
So, how do the inherited rosettes work? Is there a greater chance for inheritance than random?
Sorry if I seem obtuse, still new to the game. :)



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BravoButts (#455960)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2024-03-18 21:19:31
So, how do the inherited rosettes work? Is there a greater chance for inheritance than random?
Sorry if I seem obtuse, still new to the game. :)



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Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-19 05:39:27
Bravo, inherited rosettes really don't have any strange rules or nuance to them. They've got about a 1%(?) pass rate and that's all there is to it. I haven't studied them so I cant tell you much.



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Iri (Dae/Daem) (#295115)

Astral
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Posted on
2024-03-19 08:43:35
Man i never knew all of this! Me and my friend tried to figure it out once, and we noticed the "unders" pattern, but finding all this is just crazy- im trying to make a king design and i think you just helped a bit in making him ;P
Also, how much money are you spending on this-



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Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-19 14:58:02
Iri, thank you!! I just wanted to prove somebody wrong and ended up 30 ft in the rabbit hole. I think I'm over 30gb in, good heavens, but somebody has got to pay for it.



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BravoButts (#455960)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2024-03-20 01:12:40
So, if one were to pair normal inheritance with random, would you have an overall higher chance of getting the rosettes?

Example:
Parents have Heavy rosettes in slot 5
Parents have feline markings in slots 4 & 6

Will you have an increased chance of getting heavy rosettes in slot 5? 1% from normal inheritance and .9% from random?



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Iri (Dae/Daem) (#295115)

Astral
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Posted on
2024-03-20 18:51:07
zaba, good gods- you know, reading all this has gotten me super interested, and if youd like any help in testing the cubs with parents id be glad to help! my life is pretty boring rn so i have the time ;P Finding out new things is my passion, so itd be enjoyable for me, especially if it can help someone not spend all their moneys



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Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-20 18:59:32
My goodness! That would be a massive help, you would get credit for your tests of course, it would just have to be documented in the usual fashion to make sure it's easy to discern and legit. You can test anything you want of course, whatever you find intriguing or a possible lead. I've got tests underway for "feline unders" markings and a few color tests, so long as it's not one of those it's entirely your choice (to save money and time) Standard tests are 900 scrys, 2 parents with no markings other than whats being tested, and documenting the rosette slot and type when rolled.
Finding the result of combining white markings and green bases(to see which effect bushveld has on briar, and if one conceals the other), and if having inheritable rosettes increases the chance of random rosettes are all planned for the future if you'd like to approach those!



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Iri (Dae/Daem) (#295115)

Astral
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Posted on
2024-03-20 19:01:35
Id love to! Do you have a discord so we can communicate easier? I hate lioden messaging for some reason 💀



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Zaba (#296262)

Divine
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Posted on
2024-03-20 20:13:23
Update: test 15
Now that we've got a bunch of the criteria out of the way, I want to push the boundaries as to what the code counts as sufficient criteria. There is one marking, white feline unders, that should hypothetically fuel the criteria for soft, heavy, and briar rosettes. If it works, we should get both soft and heavy shapes. Dad has one mark, mom has no marks
dad: 794167986103 (slot 5 - white feline unders)
mom: 794199327140 (no marks)
scrys: 900
RRs: 3
RR 1: Onyx Rosette in slot 4
RR 2: Inverted Gold Rosette in slot 12
RR 3: Inverted Silky Shaded Rosette in slot 11

Conclusion: White feline unders did not meet the criteria for unders nor feline (and there aren't enough rosettes generated to determine briar) So there is definetly some bounderies, it can't just be anything. I'll have to run more tests to see what counts and doesn't count for feline, same for unders.



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Iri (Dae/Daem) (#295115)

Astral
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Posted on
2024-03-22 11:42:35
Test 16
Since rosette shapes have been shown to have some form of priority hierarchy, maybe the colors do too. Using Bushveld and Briar criteria, which one will show up more. Whichever one is more prevalent in results has the higher priority
Dad has no marks, Mom has one.

Dad: https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?mid=314382 (Green base, no marks)
Mom: https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?id=794110951686 (White Lace in slot 10

scrys: 900
RRs: 8
RR 1: Saffron Inverted Shaded Rosette - Slot 4
RR 2: Inverted Heavy Rosette Cream - Slot 11
RR 3: Bushveld Rosette - Slot 15
RR 4: Fiery Soft Rosette - Slot 3
RR 5: White Inverted Shaded Rosette - Slot 13
RR 6: Bone Inverted Shaded Rosette - Slot 13
RR 7: Gold Inverted Shaded Rosette - Slot 9
RR 8: Bone Inverted Shaded Rosette - Slot 12

Conclusion: The Fiery Soft Rosette means that we might not have the full picture of soft rosettes. Considering it was spawned from a lace marking, a marking that covers the underside of a lion, it means that maybe its all markings that cover the underside, not just with "under" in the name. The only rosette we were trying to test that spawned was Bushveld, which might mean that Bushveld has a higher spot in the roll order than Briar, however i want to do one more test and use a different white marking.



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Verlain [BO Dawn, G2
Torn] (#11943)

Holy
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Posted on
2024-03-23 12:51:41
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter



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BravoButts (#455960)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2024-03-23 20:59:11
Have you had a chance to test if pairing normal inheritance with random enhancers gives an overall higher chance of getting the rosettes in a particular slot?



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Iri (Dae/Daem) (#295115)

Astral
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Posted on
2024-03-23 21:05:01
bravo, i do not believe either of us had, however my current testing is on how inherited rosettes affect random rosettes so that we have a base to work from, so we can put that one down on the list to do next ^-^



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