-LOCKED - A Statement About Moderating
Posted on 2019-02-21 12:54:31
Hi all, Abbey here on behalf of the admin and moderating teams.

We'd like to announce right now that in the coming weeks we are planning on removing moderator badges across the entire site. We are not demoting moderators or getting rid of any systems, we are just removing the badge from visible areas next to player names. We hope that this will make the game a better place to be for both players and moderators, and hope that moderators and players can have a less tense relationship with one another.

Addressing Moderating Concerns


We would like to take this opportunity to address some concerns that players have raised with regards to the moderating system.

The anonymity of moderators within the modbox has now been in effect for over a year and over this time we have seen that this system has worked very well from behind the scenes. However, we do acknowledge that there has been some scepticism from various members over how this system actually works.

So for the sake of transparency and clarification, we'd like to give some insight to our moderating practices and how the system works for moderators and admins versus members.

Firstly, a PSA:
Moderators and admins are two very different roles on the site.

Admins are the group of staff who handle the game's functionality and features. They each have different roles, but they talk with each other on a daily basis about various things regarding running the game. Admins decide when rules should change, when changes to the game should be made, they are responsible for the coding and artwork coordination, and general behind-the-scenes stuff. The community admins work daily with the moderators whereas the non-community admins do not.

Moderators are volunteer members of the team who help us handle rule-breaking members. They are sometimes asked for input on various changes to how we moderate, rule changes, but ultimately have no control over the main parts of the game. They do not have the ability to change event bars, or add items to shops, or anything like that. Moderators are purely for moderating the forums, chat and players as a whole. They enforce the rules, and have no ability to edit the game in any way.

Anonymous Moderators
On the front-end of the modbox, we changed it so that members could no longer see specifically which moderator was handling their ticket.

This change was made primarily to cease some of the targeting that staff were seeing from members after having a decision made on their ticket that the member disagreed with. Additionally, if a moderator took some time to respond, they would sometimes start receiving PMs.

A lesser-known reason for why we changed the modbox to only show "Moderating Team" is because we felt as though it was dishonest of us to claim that one single person handled a ticket. This sometimes turned into a moderator being disliked because they were viewed as being the sole person who made a decision that someone didn't like, when in fact that decision likely had the input and support of multiple moderators and an admin.

Additionally, ANY response from a specific admin came with the support and input of every single member on the admin team, regardless of who actually claimed and handled that ticket.

Why do tickets take so long sometimes?
Firstly, the vast majority of tickets have at least a second opinion from another moderator or an admin. Moderators do not moderate and make decisions alone as a rule. Those that take longer to resolve often have the input of a large portion of the moderating team and sometimes multiple admins. This takes time for everyone to have a discussion, give their input, and ultimately come to a decision on what to do.

Just like players, moderators act under a specific ruleset, they are under constant supervision of admins and other moderators. Moderators have never banned a user for no reason - we always act on information or reports. If we believe we have made a mistake in our decisions, we will try to correct it and inform the player involved.

Why did X get punished, but Y didn't? Why did Z get banned for doing nothing?
Because we don't discuss player punishments publicly, the only time any information about reprimands comes out is from the player themselves. Sometimes a player disagrees with a decision we have made and will tell friends that they got a raw deal.

This is fine, we appreciate that everyone takes away a different account of what happened, but please be aware that there is always more to the story.

Additionally, if one player was punished for something but another player wasn't - we ask you to please trust that we handle all reports of rule-breaking behaviour fairly according to our terms of service and code of conduct. It is possible that they have received punishment, perhaps not the same as you because there were a different set of circumstances surrounding the event, or for a variety of other reasons.

If you witness a user breaking the rules, then we strongly advise you to report that behaviour to us. We rely very heavily on reports of rule-breaking behaviour - we encourage members to report anonymously when they come across this on the site.

Why don't you discuss player punishments publicly?
Logs of player punishments actually fall under "personal data" as of the GDPR of May 2018 so we legally cannot disclose any information about player punishment with other members.

We have always had this rule in place, however, so that is not the full reason. We dislike bringing up player punishments due to the subjectivity of what has happened to cause the punishment. Moderators have to rule on varying degrees of the same rule.

For instance, what exactly constitutes scamming? How can we tell this was a definite scam? Where do we draw the line on what is a scam and what is just a promise transaction that never went through due to various reasons? What effect does this scam have on the victims, and the economy as a whole?

Additionally, we prioritise the maintenance of a user's privacy - nobody should be privy to what happens as the result of a ticket other than the moderating team and that user.

We heard you don't use off-site evidence but there have been some times you have used it?
We don't use off-site evidence as a general rule because it is very easy to fake screenshots, or impersonate someone when we don't have the back-end information that Lioden provides to us. If there is concrete evidence that this person has definitely done something offsite (e.g. is selling Lioden items/lions for real money) and we can verify it on Lioden then we will happily take off-site evidence into account.

Moderating - moving forward
We want to continue being a great team who works together to moderate Lioden. We hope that removing the moderator paws from moderators will allow them to play the game normally, as a real member. They have been forced into the spotlight since day one and we'd like to offer them the opportunity to sit back and enjoy the game as a member once more.

However, this doesn't mean there are no longer mods. We will be ensuring that we keep a team fully stocked and raring to go so that any reports and tickets created by members are handled promptly and fairly.

We would respectfully ask that you don't message formerly listed mods about whether they are still a moderator or not as we believe they are entitled to their privacy with this change.

If you encounter an unfair ruling or something that isn't handled how you think it should be, we still encourage you to report your ticket to the support email (support@lioden.com) or Abbey (#1).

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If you have any transparency questions, or questions about how we moderate and why we make some decisions, please ask and we will try to answer in admin responses over the following few days. Please keep in mind we will not answer questions about specific cases.



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kokobanana (#163071)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2019-02-21 22:47:31
Zimrah has a point here. Power has a tendency to corrupt.
But I don't see why harassment should be a problem. Nobody has a right to be here and those who cannot behave can easily be introduced to the exit. ;)



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Micah (#76335)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2019-02-22 00:57:53

"The amount of paranoia in the playerbase in this game is amazing; just shows that this change is definitely needed."


Either way, I don't think this is a great idea.
I'm sorry but y'all re doing nothing but creating a wall between your staff and user base.
You should deal with those harassing the moderators, not punish the whole user base.

"They have been forced into the spotlight since day one and we'd like to offer them the opportunity to sit back and enjoy the game as a member once more."
I'm super sorry to say this, but this kind of comes with being a moderator. it's something they should have expected, you know? sdfghjkl




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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 01:09:05 by Ryan (#76335)

tok's side [clean x2
rosette] (#9117)

Usual
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Posted on
2019-02-22 02:28:29
@Ryan (#76335)

That's good. There should be a wall.
There is no reason for staff to mingle upon the userbase. Yes, it's nice to see every now and then. Hi, hello, wow nice to see you!
But there should be a wall. Not only for their protection, but ours.
An important part of being staff is the ability to be unbiased. And trust me, it's a lot easier to SAY you're unbiased than actually BE unbiased. And remember, these are unpaid volunteers. They are not being paid for their work. It's HARD to be unbiased when you're dealing with a user who you are on friendly terms with, or a user who knows you personally, or a friend of a friend.

With the ability to be anon(to US ONLY, it was explained they ARE NOT anonymous to the admins!) it allows an easier way for a moderator to be unbiased, without the fear of rejection or punishment from their peers. It makes it easier for them to do their job.

Please explain how you personally are being punished by not knowing who the mods are?
The admins know who they are. They can still see WHO deals with WHAT mod ticket. That's enough for me.
There are still many ways open for you to report something that feels unfair to you, which the admins are then able to deal with appropriately without involving the mods.

edit: wrong account oops lol
this is probably why they're not going to have anon mod accounts! it's easy to mess up! LOL

Also, I'm not speaking from the standpoint of an unknowing user.
I am a retired mod of a decently sized MMO. (: I did that for several years. So I'm familiar with both sides of the coin, as a user and someone who has worked behind the scenes doing similar things that our Lioden moderators do.

I have full faith in the Lioden admins. They have shown themselves to be competent in their job over the years that I've played this game. They're professional yet hold the game close to their hearts. Sometimes, that can be hard to find.



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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 02:42:15 by tok's side (#9112) (#9117)

❄️ Icey ❄️ (#44765)

Resurgent
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Posted on
2019-02-22 06:22:21
I disagree with this.

I've been feeling like LD's rules are too lax- people get away with too much due to it being a "16+ game", and that has allowed the birth of a VERY toxic community in this game. I've been playing for almost 5 years and it's sad how much I just... Don't care for LD anymore. I'm just here while I wait for Wolvden to see if I can maybe spark my interest again.

I'm not active, I don't chat anymore, I barely talk in the forums... And that's mostly because of the toxic topics and comments and the way people act here. I'm not even talking about offsite stuff.

I feel like the thing to be resolved would be to tighten the rules. I've gotten tired of seeing things that people really shouldn't be getting away with cause paws are always unable to do anything about it. Because they're allowed to. Not making mods invisible. I really dislike this distance put between admins and mods and players. Or the way these things are just done without input from the community... Like stripping away helpers without barely a warning.

I really hope you guys can fix this somehow. I really don't think this is the way to go. Also if this is gonna warrant an admin reply pls don't have it be the same copy-pasted "please dm abbey!" and "the admins will monitor things!" That doesn't solve it y'know. I'm talking about transparency to the MEMBERS not the admins. What happens when the members loose faith in the admins themselves?

I agree about protecting the mods. I disagree in how it's done. You're patching a hole in a dam that's about to burst.



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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 06:23:42 by ❄️ Icey ❄️ (#44765)

♛King~Juice♛ (#126817)

Sweetheart
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Posted on
2019-02-22 06:44:48
don't agree with whats said
but can't do anything about it
so Alright thanks for telling us



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Severinus [Dorsal
Scoundrel] (#59230)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2019-02-22 08:04:58
Damn, I wish MY place of employment/volunteer work covered up identities so I could get away with not being held accountable for my actions. Lucky.

Maybe fork out for paying all of your staff so you can have unbiased mods that don't need "protection" instead of skimping for volunteer ones that have a known history of breaking site TOS, harassing players, and, oh yeah, don't forget being banned?

Smh.



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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 08:08:03 by Severinus [4x Feline Silky] (#59230)

The1PunMaster | main (#167032)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2019-02-22 08:12:25
Just sayin in response to the above comment
They are still held accountable for their actions but that is up to the admins as they are the higher ups here
We can still report them IF they do something wrong but we are not the people that can hold them accountable anyways



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PhoenixRising (#88790)

Good Natured
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Posted on
2019-02-22 08:18:36
Comment above.

If we don't, who will? The Admins that change their TOS every time a mod stubs their toe so they can protect them? Our staff works hard, but it does need a bit of a reform. I agree with whoever said that mods need to be paid professionals instead of volunteers that can take advantage of their position.



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The1PunMaster | main (#167032)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2019-02-22 08:26:37
Comment above again
I just don’t want to see mods get hurt honestly if you were getting bad/hate/harrasment messages would you report it to mod box? Probably. Would the admin team try to fix the problem? Most definitely. Of course no team is perfect and every team needs reform but I believe this decision is a good on and that we should at least give it a chance
Also about the paid thing, that would make things more complicated and the mods already have to go through training before they can become a mod (I’m not gonna pretend like I know how the training is as I don’t but I’m assuming it’s not lollipops and rainbows as they do want the best) and this will also decrease the people that want to be mod for the paw



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PhoenixRising (#88790)

Good Natured
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Posted on
2019-02-22 08:29:48
Above

You're right, this relieves a lot of problems, but it also makes some big ones too.
This is a good first step, but it should not be the thing to fix the problem, only serve as the first stepping stone.



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💎⭐ Kiita
⭐💎 (#85179)

Toxic
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Posted on
2019-02-22 08:37:00
I also think mods should be paid, even it is just in GB or something. It doesn't have to be real money and I think the admins could just generate the GB to pay them, but I'm not completely sure if that's how it works. It would help by providing them incentives for doing a great job.

Maybe they could only earn them if they don't receive any complaints from users within a certain period of time? Like say for example, they get 20GB per week if they don't get any complaints but once they get one complaint, it drops to 10GB, and upon getting 2 or more complaints placed against them, they will get 0GB that week. It gives them a bit more incentive for doing their job well. And as it is now, they have nothing to lose except their mod position if they do not handle things well. I hope this makes sense. :3

Another thought... I feel like maybe the community would be more welcoming to this new change if LD did a complete overhaul by getting rid of the old ones and getting all new mods to go along with this new system. I say this because there tends to be a lot of distrust for the old ones for some reason. But it also does not seem fair to punish the mods who were awesome at their job and did nothing wrong. So maybe it's not the best way to go.

It's starting to look like whatever you do, it will be a double-edged sword. But what many players are failing to realize is that they are the ones who created this 'rift' between mods and normal players to begin with. It is not our job as players to police every little thing that mods do. That job falls to the admins and they are capable of holding them accountable. Because we do have a way to report any corrupt or misbehaving mods, we can hold them accountable for their actions that way. And now that we can block mods, that should prevent any players from having to interact with certain mods that they don't trust. One of the reasons I think this 'rift' is so big is because players could see who the mods were and they could judge them based on their other in-game actions which might not always involve moderating. This change should solve that.

It helps to remember that mods are people too. Imagine making a mistake or two and having everyone hold it against you forever. I'd imagine that wouldn't feel too good or make you want to help people much. The only way it would be ok to judge someone for that would be if you are perfect and have never made any mistakes. Actually not even then, because everyone is not the same.

In the end... It is not up to us to decide whether someone is fit for their job or not. That is up to the admins here. You can't tell a company who to hire and fire just because you are a customer, that's not how life works.



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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 08:55:45 by 💎⭐ Kiita ⭐💎 (#85179)

Kripke ICE {Weekly
Raffles} (#49153)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2019-02-22 08:52:33
The issue with paying with game currency is it can makes an unfair advantage; and also creates players wanting to be moderators just for the in game currency.

Moderating a game is hard, and fun. But it really comes down to the why. Why would anyone donate time to be support. Is it for the prestige, for the benefit of the game, for the power? For the pay?

Everything that’s happened here with moderators is the same that happened to the two games I had moderated for. It’s a tough place to be on all sides.



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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 08:53:17 by Kripke ICE {Weekly Raffles} (#49153)

Pinktiger (#42207)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2019-02-22 09:08:52
Thank you for all your hard work. :)



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Severinus [Dorsal
Scoundrel] (#59230)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2019-02-22 09:14:57
My major issue is, looking back on the moderators who were BANNED for major site infractions that happened in private chats....how the hell are we gonna know who/when they're doing stuff like that now? It's gonna go right under the rug.

There's a reason players have come to distrust moderation on Lioden, and it's not usually just for the sake of being spiteful human beings.

Pay. For. True. Moderation.



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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 09:17:24 by Severinus [4x Feline Silky] (#59230)

💎⭐ Kiita
⭐💎 (#85179)

Toxic
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Posted on
2019-02-22 09:22:29
I still agree that mods deserve to be paid. But did you know you can also report any private messages to the modbox as well? If you were talking to a mod in PM, and they broke a rule or did something corrupt, or if you were in a private chat and they committed an infraction, they could still be banned for it just the same as any player would. The admins would know that person was a mod and still be able to act accordingly and remove them as a mod and/or ban them if it were needed. So them being anonymous to us would change nothing in that scenario.



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Edited on 22/02/19 @ 09:25:50 by 💎⭐ Kiita ⭐💎 (#85179)



Topic is locked




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