@Angela |HH| FullSkyward, that's exactly what I, and probably many others, feel. Thank you for that.
We really don't want to make you look bad, because the lioden staff is definitely the most user-friendly one I've ever met (despite being really annoyed by the pool, I still knew there's no way you'll ignore us). The community tries to defend what they've worked on for years - as Angela said, we're both scared and upset. This kind of changes never works out - doesn't matter if it's something hard to get or limited edition, introducing an easier way to get it will upset everyone who spent time and resources on getting that.
Our good intentions don't always come up as we expected.

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Angela and Agryo pretty much summed up my feelings in response to that lmao

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Yup ^

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That's a super great post, Agryo. I agree with all that you've said.

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Katze, thank you for taking the time to respond. The issue here is indeed that a lot of fear, and perhaps resentment has come to surface. For some reason unbeknownst to me, players that want more applicators are calling breed/raffle marking players "elitists," thus, older players or players with a different playing style are scared that only the opinions of those extremely loud, or the opinions of those that want "new and shiny" things without regarding how it will affect others will be the only ones being heard. More applicators sound nice on the surface, especially considering how the player base has responded to such applicator markings in the past. Regardless, said applicator markings were always applicator rather than retired "old" markings.

Another fear that has been created with the idea of creating July marking applicators is the precedent that it sets. Yes, the markings are old, but so are the various feline markings, the vitiligos, etc. Would those also be phased out into applicators? In all technicality, there is no reason to make one set of "breed/raffle only" markings applicable and others remain as breed-only. That completely undermines a wide range of players.

I remember when breed only markings were introduced in the game, back when value was assigned to lions that were "half" or "full" custom, i.e, the lions had value because their parents were customized via the oasis. This raffle/breed only move was necessary to keep the game afloat, it was a great idea since it added a challenge to the game. I personally stopped playing Lioden for awhile because my lion goals were easily achievable. Slap some oasis markings and bam! Done! Then vitiligo 1 was released, and white underfelt, etc, along with shiny new bases! Bases like fiery, maroon and prune that could only be bred for rather than applied. It really was revolutionary for a game where breeding was part of the game, but was not exactly necessary to have an attractive or rewarding king. If players don't role-play and actually like breeding, picking out parents with rare markings to pass on, well that was certainly a great move from your part.

Right now we are heading towards that same bland, old era Lioden. Too many applicators, not enough space.


Honestly, if you search in the trade center or look at the average player's kings... they are inundated with applicator markings. From hyenas to brawls, to different iterations of coat colors that are usually thrown upon a king. It is actually difficult for me to find cubs WITH breed only markings. There are some gorgeous applicator markings that can be used tastefully to finish the look of a king but... all I see are twenty different applicators.... and those twenty different applicators get very redundant, very fast.

We should be asking ourselves when was the last time we got a new breed only marking, and not just a recolor. Not counting vitiligo 9, it has been a very long time. Considering just how much multiple people were willing to pay for that raffle lioness because she had a rare, pretty marking that could only be achieved through breeding further demonstrates that there is a market for breed only markings. I keep seeing new applicator and RMA markings, and while those are nice and agreeable to some of the LD player base, where are the new raffle markings?

I understand that it is impossible to please everyone, and that constantly producing new content can be exhausting, but, breed only/raffle markings do not need to be revamped.

Even if breeding projects drive me insane, there is some fun to the madness. Don't make breed-only's applicators. Fix the lioness raffle system, and maybe add new markings over there to balance things out. Raffle lionesses are still fun and desired, not just because they are pretty, but because they introduce new/old markings in rare slots which aid in breeding a dream king or creating a new project altogether. Just as a nine vitiligo marked raffle lioness would undermine multi vitiligo breeders, so would July applicators eventually undermine us all, one way or another.

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I’m not sure how accurate your poll results will be Katze.

I’ve noticed quite a few times now where a player has commented that they chose yes not realising what it meant and now wish they could change it.

How many others have chosen yes for the same reasons?

Who knows how many have done your poll without ever reading any of the discussion, so are still in La La land as to what the poll actually means?

Yet the votes on this thread where people are reading on and discussing this poll, tells a much different story.

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Yeah, Im regretting my yes vote.

Would change it if I could. Anyway, support.

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Katze, your response is appreciated, but otherwise rings hollow.

Admin changes done without asking the userbase has backfired almost every single time. Kimanjano and Mandarin have a near negative value due to the struggle to pass them, and the "exciting exclusivity" of the bases is instead tedious and unrewarding. (For reference, Kimanjano has 253 lions and 50 kings, Mandarin has 200 lions and 37 kings. Both of which are disgustingly low for a special base).

The double uterus nerf has done similar. Eveybody wants one but nobody's willing to pay for something so rare. Their bloodlines are stagnant, and at LEAST 75 of the 500 are frozen on banned accounts. The change was OVERWHELMINGLY negative, and there's little to no market for the mutation whatsoever.

Most of the admins don't actually play Lioden. There's no real grasp on value and demand, nor is there any appreciation for play-styles outside of the vanilla game (clean breeding and stat breeding, for example). So to say that there's a lot of care and value taken into each change is, well, misleading at best, and a downright lie at worst.

Listen to the experienced playerbase. We're the people who've put in the time (and, almost always money) into the game.

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"(For reference, Kimanjano has 253 lions and 50 kings, Mandarin has 200 lions and 37 kings. Both of which are disgustingly low for a special base)."

I know I always mention them, but it's because it's true and shocking. Look at how many Sepia and Pearl kings there are. Sepia and Pearl have existed since 2014-2015.

Lilac has more, but it has still fallen off hardcore. Sidereal too even though Sidereal is very popular.

Combo bases are also very bad. Think about how Pulsar only passes during July... that's not a good way to make something rare. That kind of thing especially encourages people to just slap a bunch of apps on because just think about how god-awful breeding your ideal heir would be if you wanted that base + breed-only marks.

Maybe I'm going on a tangent here, but I think Lioden needs to seriously slow down even more on the new content. There's too much new and shiny stuff going out with no time to think about how to balance it and its distribution properly. Monthly events really, really don't help.

My main criticism of this game honestly lies with its core gameplay, which is a discussion for a different day.

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I'm one of those players. I was tired and didn't understand- I think I thought they meant like, NEW markings, not ones that already existed.

Anyways, doesn't matter. Point is, me and several others chose yes, then we realized it was a massive mistake. I modboxed it, but the mods claimed there was nothing they could do.

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If the staff actually listened and looked and played the game they would have known that this was a bad idea, that they would alienate and hurt their most loyal and long standing users with this kind of thing

Like this is my personal message to staff- While yes I get frustrated and angry with rng and breeding it doesn't mean that you need to turn the marks into apps, it means maybe you should take a long look at how the game works and how your changes, even with the best intentions, can backfire and lead to nothing but unhappiness on all sides and that sometimes it's better to slow down on new content and apps in order to give the game the actual love and care it deserves at this point rather than catering to the lowest common denominator of the game

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I'd be pretty livid if they actually do go through with the applicators. I spent the equivalent of 60GB on my Celestial base, celestial mane, quad mark celestial king(without all his extra markings and the mutation). I already haven't been on Lioden much at all anymore as is and this would probably make me not want to play even more. Hopefully the Lilac base won't become applicable in the future either otherwise my side king and my point for wanting to be on here would completely diminish.

Edit; Also, I COMPLETELY agree with Paravel!! Extremely detailed and well thought out response!!

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Paravel.... Well say 😊

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I guess my only issue is that I am very happy with my king, enough that I really have no plans to change him for several generations. That also means he'll never have Celestal/Skyward/Sidereal marks. I haven't been on the game long enough to know the struggle of breeding markinga- I'm more of a casual player and don't bother too much with breeding specific marks, bases, manes, eyes, etc. Though I do totally understand the frustration from the players, I do hope we can come to a compromise in regards to this.

And I, for one, don't feel the staff are ignoring the player base. The poll definitely garnered interest, right? That's why we're here, discussing this. On the other hand, I am active on a site where the staff just flat-out tell you that your feedback is appreciated, but not always taken into consideration.
Said site is also dying, of course. I find Lioden a refreshing change compared to that community

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I originally voted yes but I've also changed my mind, like a bunch of other folk.

There's really no need to devalue the marks at all. My thought is that they should just removed from raffle lions in July all together and left to be obtained from current kings and pride members - there are thousands of them in the game, let a breed only mark be a breed only mark :)

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