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| Posted by | -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades |
 Katze (#3)  
Heavenly View Forum Posts  Posted on 2022-08-12 09:33:32 |
Hi, everyone! As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides: * ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB" Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value. When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades. We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time. As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were. Potential Solutions * We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake. * There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator. * We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with. We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on. To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf? In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with. If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having. This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well. |
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Shadow (Main) (#73284)
Maneater View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 11:58:47 |
But you will have the issue of players reporting any trade they feel is a paper clip/challenge trade even if they are moved to the forums. I am going to say that I am going with leaving them as currently is.  0 players like this post! Like? |
Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 12:02:35 |
And so what, even if they do report? Lioden Mods are really professional at handling issues! Fear not - each issue is carefully looked at, you wont get a warning if someone reports you for no reason and you didnt break the rules, and certainly, there will be a clear guideline what is and isnt a "paperclip" once any changes are made. Lioden Mods are great, I never had a bad experience with them from both sides of the issue  and, the trade isnt removed as soon as its "reported", its only flagged for Mods to look at - it will only be removed if Mods deem it breaking the rules. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🌑 Night Moon 🌑 (#307346)
Heartbreaker View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 12:06:54 |
Yea I'd let the mods worry about moderation since they seem to do a fine job at it. I wouldn't be worried so long as I'm not someone looking for loopholes or other ways to do trade up challenges on tc. Plus, the unlikelihood someone goes and reports a ton of legitimate trades isn't enough to disregard all the opinions and overwhelmingly supportive votes here. It's very clear the community is not a fan of these trades and don't want them in tc, I truly think the only real sure fire way for them to be allowed, but not a nuisance to others is a sub forum for them. If your trade is reported and a moderator sees it as a challenge trade, best to move it there anyways 🤷♀️ 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Khajiit {G1 Leonid Magpie} (#68800) Cursed View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 12:09:27 |
Which quite a few of us stated is not exactly going to happen. And if it does - well, the person reporting will be in trouble. And I assure you that no player is stupid enough to get themselves in trouble just over a "bad day". Such things happen once a decade or not at all. And leaving the trades as is... Well, let's face it, quite a lot of people are tired/annoyed by the veiled begging in them and would prefer them out of the TC. Why should I block hundreds of people who do not do anything else than just put up the veiled begging in the TC just to not have it clogged? It's both unfair to me as a player - limiting my ability to interact with a community on a, let's face it, multiplayer online game - and also unfair to the other users who participate in the challenge, as they will end up being blocked by a huge part of the community too for seemingly no reason, which can be a source of stress, anxiety or other problems with them thinking they did something wrong. A subforum fixes both of those - we who are annoyed by the challenge can avoid seeing it by having it in a subforum we won't visit, and the people who participate in the challenge won't be hit with a huge block wall and stress over the "why half of the users I see are now saying they have blocked me?". It's a win/win situation with subforum. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Corruptedhyena (#243378)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 12:14:09 |
I feel like the biggest problem rn is what makes a paperclip trade ok. I personally don't think anything wrong with most of them. Paperclip trades are not begging, as begging means asking for something multiple times even when told no. These trades aren't asking for anything specific and are not harassing people to donate. I am strongly against this kinda trade being banned in anyway. This type of challeneg/trade may have started as a joke, but now it is actually a challenge people are doing. Idk if people have the miss conception of what this challenge entails or what not, but this isn't something easy that happens. Especially when starting from 1 sb. It takes a long time and a lot of effort/negotiating to complete. Its not like these trades are strictly offering 1 sb for a tigon or whatever, instead they are offering 1 sb, for lets say 2 sb. Then that 2 sb will be offered for something slightly higher. By the end of all the trades, there should be enough accumulated that it is worth a tigon. To me this seems as a joke that turned out to be a creative way to challenge a player. Personally, the best option to me is to just leave them be. Rn it is a trend, but after it cools off, there won't be the overflow of them in tc. Plus, I really don't understand how they are annoying to others. Yeah they can flud the trade sometimes, but usually when someone goes into yhe trade center, they have something specific yhey are looking for. Therefore, they are using the filters in the tc, limiting the amount of these trades they see. If it really seems like an issue to the entire community, then my next suggestion is to add a trade center area for it, or to add an area in forums for it. These challenges/trades are super fun to do and is actually really difficult to accomplish. If we are looking for a quick solution, I think that changing the "Breeding project" forum category to "projects/challenges" category would suffice. We can also try trade blocks and such, but honestly idk how well it would work. Blocks are always an iffy subject. The viggest problem I cab forsee with this is the difficulty to block all the trades wanted since yhey go by different names (ex: 1sb to ___ | paperclip | etc. ) 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 12:14:18 |
One downside thing with a "soft block" blocking just the trades, what if I want the other trades from the person, but not the paperclips?  This person could be selling NCLs I need for breeding project, or item Id like to purchase, or a cub Im interested in... but all that trading potential will be lost if trades are blocked for both the seller and the buyer.  And separate "trading centre folder" for paperclips wont solve it I feel... like, look at the separate GB sales section, its there but still lots of people sell their GBs in normal trades as well. Adding it wont remove all of the paperclips from normal trades, people will keep posting them there, unless it becomes against the rules AND has to be done in forums, instead. If paperclips are considered Forum Games, and not allowed to be posted in public trades, there wont be such an issue. Trades will go on, paperclips will go on - all, conveniently, in their own corners of the site. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🌑 Night Moon 🌑 (#307346)
Heartbreaker View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 12:18:52 |
If it's a challenge or a game, that's exactly why it belongs in the games and challenges forum... And not tc? There's already a forum there. It's a lot easier to just add a sub category for trade up posts than it is to modify the entire tc to allow trades the vast majority of the community has now openly stated they don't like and find to be a nuisance/begging. It's fairly obvious the community as a whole wants them off. The only way to get and keep them off tc is a sub forum. Which isn't a problem if you're reported unless you're trying to trade for something outside the value worth of what you're offering in the first place. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Myriad (#76)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 12:32:54 |
"begging means asking for something multiple times even when told no" - that's very much not the definition of begging as most people would recognise it. You don't need to persist in asking for things multiple times for it to count as begging. Or to have been told no. Begging = asking (even subtly - hence veiled begging) for things for free or blatantly less than they're worth. If I said 'please, I only have 10sb and I know they're expensive but I really realllllly need a buffalo scrotum, can anyone give me one for 10sb' that would still be begging. Even if it was the first time. And to a lot of us that's the equivalent of what a lot of these types of trades are doing. The argument that they're just a short-lived trend that will soon die out and go away has been going on for years now, with no sign of that happening. I've seen a slight dip the last couple of days (possibly as a direct result of this post and its mention in the News post, as others have hypothesised), but overall they're really not fading away. As to whether these types of trades/challenges in the TC are annoying to some/most people, I feel like the ratio of support to no-support votes on this post makes that pretty self evident. Currently there are 337 total votes, and 317 of those are support. Which implies that 94% of the players responding are in favour of some sort of change to fix the current situation, because they're not happy with things as they are. The more I read of this thread the more in favour of a sub-forum I am to be honest - especially if it could be excluded from the Recent Activity/Recent Topics sections of Chatter like bugboard reports etc are at the moment, to prevent the same clogging issue returning there instead. The impact on mod workload would undoubtedly be a lot at first, but it would be bound to cool off once people got the hang of the rule. Nobody wants to keep pushing things once they're risking getting warnings/reminders/etc. And mods are pretty great at using their discretion over what is or isn't a legitimate report. I don't know the extent of mod tickets/flags/etc that staff get behind the scenes though. So I'm willing to accept being wrong on that if the volume of other stuff they get is already way more than I realise..! 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 12:35:56 by Myriad (#76) |
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Flower_of_the_Sun (#36232)
King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-14 21:33:26 |
One thing with the supports vs no supports thing, or even this topic as a whole, is only those who have a strong inclination one way or another are likely to hit support/no support, or comment at all. (And honestly in this it's a little unclear what hitting support would actually mean. It could just mean "I support that we're talking about this and I get to voice my opinion that it shouldn't be changed".) I think a more useful measure of how the community as a whole feels about the issue would be a poll like the ones on the community updates with options such as: I strongly feel something should be done about this, I strongly feel nothing should be changed, and I don't care either way, because it may be quite likely that the majority of the community.... just doesn't care. (and if you don't care, taking 1 second to vote in a poll is a lot easier than taking the time to write out a message saying "It doesn't affect me and I don't care.") To clarify, I think this discussion topic is great, so we can give specific feedback on the ideas and give our own ideas, but I think doing a poll in addition to it would be a good idea too. (and including poll options for those who aren't bothered by it but also don't strongly feel it shouldn't be changed.) For perspective: The polls that are put in the updates seem to get somewhere around 3000 votes. (Some may be people with 2 accounts voting on both accounts, but the same holds true with people with two accounts supporting or no supporting on both accounts.) So let's say we take this 3000 to represent the active community. Even if we assume every support vote = I want this to change, and every no support vote = I don't want this to change, that means, of the active community, 10.7% have voted that they do want it to change and .7% have voted that they don't want it to change. That leaves 86% of the community who haven't "voted". It's possible that that 86% don't care either way. It's possible that they have an opinion but just didn't choose to support/no support the topic. We have no way of knowing. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 14/08/22 @ 22:22:26 by Flower_of_the_Sun (#36232) |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-15 03:19:44 |
Once all viable options are compiled, it could absolutely be a thing that's finalized through poll. So far the options most seem to agree on are: Create a subforum for Paperclip/Challenge trades and move them off the Trading Center. Create a subcategory for trades on the Trading Center which are specifically for Challenge trades. After the discussions, I personally think that a subforum both makes the most sense - since users can curate threads for these trades - and that it'll lead to the least headache. These kinds of threads should be (theoretically) easy to self-regulate, users can decide what they want and don't want in the thread, and when a deal has been reached, they can make a private trade. Mods can sticky a thread to read first before opening a Paperclip/Challenge thread. I mean fuck, if users really wanted to, they could make a clan about it. I'll state that for those doing legitimate challenges who are trading items 'up' in value, I think it's an interesting idea. A way for users to make some fun on a site that can get boring when you've been on it for so long, especially. But I do think that the 1 SB trades need to be looked at as begging, and disallowed from both Trading Center and any potential subforums. As I stated previously, outside of some single item junk/amusement you can sell to monkey, there's no items in LD which have a worth of 1 SB which is consistant as defined by the community. Even common explore items sell for something like 5 to 50 SB. And when you look at the trades that say stuff like "Looking to get as much as I can" or "equal or greater value", one needs to look at the very real possibility that these users are knowingly doing this to skirt the no-begging rule. At least on a forum, these users would be encouraged to talk about what they want and what they're working toward. I think it's just such a tricky topic because more jaded users like myself have become accustomed to spotting the veiled begging that it's hard to see the 1 SB trades as anything else. Every time I see someone in chat say "Oh no my lions are about to run they're so hungry! I need food and I don't have any!", it's become a knee-jerk response to say "Then Hunt," because a lot of us realize it's veiled begging. At least trading items, you're giving something with a worth that is more nebulous than 1 SB. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Flower_of_the_Sun (#36232)
King of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-15 03:24:35 |
I can definitely agree that specifically asking for items of greater value, and especially saying you'll only accept items of greater value shouldn't be allowed. Which, that at least should be fairly easy to moderate with the report button that's already there. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-15 03:30:08 |
Yeah. Users can do that on their end. Would just require the final ruling from mods so people know, and can pre-emptively take down trades that violate it. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Khajiit {G1 Leonid Magpie} (#68800) Cursed View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-15 03:36:28 |
This still leaves the problem as to why should the trades be reportable, Flower_of_the_Sun. As of now, even if you report such trade, mods have their hands tied as it is a "challenge" and it's allowed to be in the TC. That's why it would be good to have it moved to a dedicated subforum, with specified rules and where it would be easier to see and moderate, as users cannot delete their messages, only edit. With trades - you report the trade, they cancel/it's bought out, boom, mods cannot see it anymore. And while editing the message can change whatever they said, it also shows that hey, something was fixed/changed there. And as Nadir said - it's become for us, active older players, a knee jerk reaction to react and easily discern the veiled begging, in chat, in forums and in trades; often followed by a "Explore/hunt/sell extra shit you find/use the damn energy/buy event items/check wiki for profitable items or encounter results". We've seen it happen and probably only mods and admins saw it happen more than we did. That's why we are so happy with the idea of a subforum - it keeps TC clean, people have more space to write out their expectations for the trades AND it helps both the users and mods to keep track of what's been going on with the challenge and if everyone is following CoC. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-15 05:54:39 |
Such a forum would allow Mods to sticky rules, and enforce them. Maybe that should be the rule; that Branches and Trading Center are for standard trading, sales and purchases only, not games or challenges. Like, frankly, I think it's a good rule in general to keep games, challenges, and any similar non-basic trade mechanics in the forums. People have done it for a while with the 'Wishlist' threads and the 'Person Below Me Gets' threads, do it with raffles during December for pooping/gifting goals, and so forth. I think that legitimately there should just be a SubForum specifically for games, challenges and so forth. I know we have the 'Forum Games' category but that's more for '3 Word Story' games and such. Here's a quick mock-up I made:  0 players like this post! Like? |
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NSH (G1 Goldenrod RLC) (#14870)
View Forum Posts Posted on 2022-08-15 08:17:29 |
^ This mockup is something along the lines of what I was thinking as well. Furthermore a subforum would be inherently better for these challenges as they're easier to communicate in vs the TC. It's also worth it to note that this has zero negative impact on anyone that was actually doing a challenge. Instead it gives people a good place to actually plan, communicate and perhaps even log their challenges and that would be cool to see 0 players like this post! Like? |
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