Posted by -LOCKED - Community Input on Challenge/Paperclip Trades

Katze (#3)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:33:32
Hi, everyone!

As mentioned within August 12th's Community Update news, we are aware that part of the community dislikes challenge/paperclip trades appearing in the Trading Center. One particular topic has had a fair bit of discussion from both sides:
* ⚔️TwoSwordsClash⚔️ (#122111), "Outlaw "joke" trades of 1 SB"

Our stance has generally been that the Trading Center is a player-run "free market". Part of the reason for this is that you, the players, determine the value that items and other assets hold over time. Players are free to try to sell or trade their assets at whatever value they choose, and other players are free to decide whether or not they accept that value.

When it comes to moderating challenge/paperclip trades, the main question is: where do we draw the line? At what value does a trade become more than just a paperclip trade? If an arbitrary value is set, then trades will simply be created at a value just above that. If it becomes a matter of simply disallowing any trades entitled "What can I get for _____?", then we essentially remove open-ended offer-based trades.

We understand that a big concern is how they flood the Trading Center and push legitimate trades out of view, though we have never moderated the amount of trades any one player can post at one time, or how many of a certain type of trade can exist at the same time.

As you can see, moderating these trades isn't a cut-and-dried solution, much as we wish it were.

Potential Solutions
* We could add the ability to conveniently and instantly hide trades under the "Recent Trades" and "Search Results" listings for trades, without needing to click to view the actual trade, and without needing to block the trade's creator. An additional "Hidden Trades" section could be added to the Trading Center interface in case a trade is hidden by mistake.
* There could be an additional option to "Hide All Trades By This Player", as well. This could act as a "soft block" which only prevents you from seeing certain trades, and still allows you to interact with the trade creator.
* We could implement a new Stockpile subforum category for "Challenge Trades", where players would be encouraged to advertise their challenges. Players could then set up private trades if they end up receiving a buyer for their trade, rather than publicly listing their trades in the Trading Center beforehand. The downside of this option is then moderating what does and does not belong within that subforum, needing to cancel/remove any publicly-listed challenge trades, and determining what falls under a challenge trade to begin with.

We would ideally like to hear whether or not this is something you think might provide added value for you when using the Trading Center. Additionally, if you have thoughts on other possible (manageable) solutions or suggestions on how this type of system could be improved, we're open to hearing these as well. Keep in mind that any solutions tied to moderation would require hard-set definitions that not all players may see eye to eye on.

To further clarify: We want your input on how exactly we rule this type of trade - where is the line? Why isn't my 1 SB trade open for any offers allowed? It's a legitimate trade, I am offering something in exchange for an offer. Why would it be considered begging or a challenge/paperclip trade? What if it was 5 SB instead of 1? 10 instead of 5? Who determines whether I'm asking to trade up by offering 1 SB for a Large Leaf?

In order to moderate things like this efficiently, we need a concrete determined set of rules about what constitutes a challenge trade. That's what we need your help with.

If we implement the second Trading Center idea that some people are suggesting, how do we determine that a trade in the "regular" Trading Center isn't just a misplaced challenge trade? This is the conundrum we're having.

This topic will remain open for two weeks, and will be locked on Friday, August 26th, 2022. Once it is locked, our admin team will review it for potential ideas and solutions. We will post an update on the situation as soon as we are able to work one out, if one can be worked out at all—and if we decide not to pursue these trades, we will announce this as well.



This suggestion has 517 supports and 40 NO supports.



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:03:48 by Katze (#3)

Moony the 2nd-G2
Noctis Ferus (#108860)

Maneater
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:49:51
I think the block is the best option. Let the player choose what they want to see



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Khajiit {G1 Leonid
Magpie} (#68800)

Cursed
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:50:17
Yeah, that's why I mentioned that banning them is most likely never going to happen. The subforum sounds like the best option from all available ones, due to it having more benefits for users. As for what Snowmew mentioned - is there a possibility to make it so that the challenges subforum won't show in the recent activity to avoid that being clogged? Or for it to have it's own side panel? Though that second one is probably going to be a pain to code.



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Ginger (#184632)

Punk
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:50:38
@Katze

I think that if y'all decided to make it forum based, as it appears to be the majority of players wanting this, then it should include all "What can I get for x" as well as anything labeled as a challenge. This would hopefully make it easier on the mods to moderate however I'm sure not everyone would be happy with banning *all* "What can I get for x" trades but I guess you can't make everyone happy tbh



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Ars (Clean G9 Double
Soul) (#274924)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:50:53
Yeah, it does definitely feel like begging....



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Safire (g2 Smilus
2xr Bandit) (#208105)

Ruthless
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:51:14
From a brief skim of the issue, it sounds to me like big problems start with the initial stages of the challenge. Once someone has stuff to trade, even if small, it becomes a legitimate trade (eg, gemstones, event scales, ect). So maybe encourage people to start the challenge at the giving tree or on branches as opposed to the trade center? Just an idea



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ash (#162613)

Punk
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:51:54
i think the first one sounds the easiest on everyone (well i’m not sure how easy that would be for mods but players i mean), as well as the best solution in my opinion. still being able to advertise like normal and those who don’t wish to see it could simply hide those specific kinds of trades.



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Clawdina | G2 x3
Ros/MS DF (#145104)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:52:41
I defo think making a subforum for them would be the best course of action. Although it brings up the needing to mod the forum & mass cancel trades, I'd suggest once the decision has been made, allow players a certain amount of time to cancel their trades before manually cancelling.
As mentioned in the og thread, having to block people just to not see the trades is hard, as the # of paperclip challenge trades hasn't steadied hardly at all. Comparing it to other features such as the marking blocker, having the ability to hide certain trades when a person sees them is essentially the same as just blocking a single marking on a single king/lion when we see it rather than being able to block it universally. I'd much rather it be something that can be properly moderated than individuals having to hide or soft block every single player that they come across in the tc.

--
ok reading through some of the comments, I 100% would prefer these to just be straight out banned since I also consider them veiled begging (specifically those who say x sb/gb to tigon/pon/hybrid/100gb etc.)
In response to one of katze's posts of deciding what kind of thing is a "challenge" specifically, I'd honestly say anything that is "this to that." the 'what can i get' trades have been around forever, and I think those have more legitimacy (with the exception of the 1sb joke trades).



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:00:20 by Clawdina | G1 Fringe (#145104)

Rev (#33930)

Maneater
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:53:16
I agree that the cleanest method would be to ban these, but there is a difficult line to draw. It's hard because there are some trades where.... you can look at them and tell that it's disguised begging, but I can't exactly describe how I know it's begging. I suppose if there's no clear list of what the person is looking for in the trade. If I put up a 5 SB trade and say I'm specifically looking for.... one red shiny rock, that's fine. But putting it up and saying I'll take anything is more on the begging side. I don't know how that could be solved, though.



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Sulphor🖤 (#258956)

Sweetheart
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:53:57
What about something like an option of selecting a price you wanna see. Kinda like how you can do it when searching for lions or items(you cant do this in basic). But not just have a maximum amount but a minimum. Or have an option to "hide trades under (amount you selected)".

EDITED: have a minimum and maximum amount you wanna look at. I have to do these things on a few different site for IRL things. Example: set the minimum to 3sb and then the maximum to 500SB and that will filter out all the 1sb or if there still to many you can just go to 5sb ect.



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Edited on 12/08/22 @ 10:08:08 by Sulphor🖤 (#258956)

Vendetta {27.05.2022
RLC} (#243465)

Divine
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:54:04
I like the subforum option but personally I don't really understand people's distaste for these trades, it's a creative way to work up to something you'd really like and who doesn't love helping other players out!



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poekiajam *G1 FULL
Dawn 5xROS* (#103167)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:54:08
maby instead of plain banning. add it to the begging rule that trades like this *any kind of asking for trade up* is a form of begging and against the rules



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Dante ~ G1 Revived
mRLC [Main] (#80013)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:54:31
What if the trade was simply defined as "looking to get more than it's *obviously* worth." For example, looking to trade a 10 year old pon for a 2 year old pon or trading 1gb for 2gb, and so on. That's basically begging, but it would still allow people to do this sort of thing in the trading center honestly without spamming it.

E.g., they could still trade up, e.g., by putting out a "what can I get for 1gb," then "what can I get for this [black stallion]" (etc), then "what can I get for this giant tort" and so on, but without specifically being a challenge or begging.



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milk (#325561)

Usual
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:54:41
i agree with those saying it should be banned as it is just thinly veiled begging,

as that will likely not be considered, i think its own subforum the best idea. if the mods choose to allow this type of trade they choose to moderate them, if they want to not moderate this type of trade, they can just get rid of it.

if neither of those win out, i really hope they consider allowing an option to 'filter out' certain words to remove irrelevant posts.

i highly dislike the "hide posts by this user" option. there are many, many users who post these challenges, and it isnt each individual user's responsibility to flag begging posts, i am pretty sure thats the point of using a moderated site.



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Em-Project King (#276829)

Divine
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:54:57
I agree with soft block



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Dante ~ G1 Revived
mRLC [Main] (#80013)

Impeccable
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Posted on
2022-08-12 09:55:20
@poekiajam Darn, you beat me to it xD



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