Lions, Leopards, Wolves ECT do NOT eat humans ((Only Tsavo lion's eat human I think)) and never attack they only defend yourselves. If you were related to a poacher wouldn't you be dissapointed in them that they are killing not only animals but HUMANS aswell because they are selfish?

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Lions, wolves, what have you will only attack humans if they are any of the following: Sick, injured or driven out of the pride (lions) or pack (wolves) due to the first two, and or being unable to hunt due to old age.

And of course if a lion, leopard, wolf is young but injured, we are easy prey. Same with elderly animals who can't really hunt anymore, at least not a gazelle, deer or anything that can run faster than an older predator.

I dislike poaching as much as the next person. But my only problem is that this event focuses on the cute animals that walk on four legs who get killed for horns, tusks, hands (gorillas) and more. There is way more going on than just land based poaching.

I keep hoping for there to be focus on the other creatures who aren't as cute as a lion or gorilla, but are in as much peril due to many factors. But I know this is for lions and other African creatures in this event. This just about the time of year I start tossing out my messages for saving other animals that may not be as lovable.

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Oh LORD. Sorry for not replying to you guys, Lioden never told me that my topic was replied. Sorry about that! Anyway, back to talking to you guys. Since there were so many replies, I'm gonna have to generalize my reply to you all.

The points I see mostly for all of you:

1. There are plenty of better jobs than being a poacher available.

Is there? Please list them to me. Give me a good amount of jobs in Africa that pay a decent amount of money to people who don't exactly have the most smarts in the world. If you cannot, I rest my case in saying that poaching, or at least what you believe to be poaching, is a way to provide for these men's families/loved ones.

2. Poachers do everything they do for greed, so they deserve everything they get. They are inherently evil people.

How do you know that? How do you know that every single poacher out there is greedy and in it for the money? Humans only do things that they believe to be good and just, that's common sense. What if a man indeed poached an animal, but did so quickly and justly? You would write that off as hunting instead, correct? Then, what is the line between hunting and poaching? How do we know for sure someone is a cruel hunter or a good poacher?

3. These animals are tortured or badly injured before being killed by these poachers.

Again, how do you know all of them do that? Obviously, if a rhino or lion died from a quick gunshot and only afterwards were the goods taken, someone would write them off as a hunter. Only the most terrible cases come to news reports and the internet. Unless you've been there and experienced it, you don't know the whole story. Neither do I.

4. Lions, wolves, and the like do not attack human beings on sight. Therefore, these animals do not fight unless provoked or trying to defend something.

True. I am not refuting this fact, I know that poachers do indeed attack animals for what they can take and hopefully sell for money.

6. It's only a game, so there is no need to be angry about it.

Oh, don't worry! I'm not saying Lioden is a terrible site for doing this, by no means. Personally, I'm just trying to get as low my karma as possible in the game by killing the humans. But I'm talking about the real world, where I'm not a lion.

But let's all just think for a moment. If you had never seen this site, would you still feel as strongly about poaching as you do now?

And I would just like to focus the most on Wild Magic *FELIO*, since they seem to feel the most strongly about this topic. Wild Magic *FELIO*, if you'd like to debate with me, I would be glad to. Otherwise, I will not mention you specifically again.

If I missed anything, do let me know!

Thank you all for listening to me. At the end of the day you are all great people! God bless.

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Hunter: Person who hunts animals for food or other IMPORTANT things. Most don't torture the animal and they don't go on mass animal slaughters. They typically don't hunt predators unless the predators are overpopulated and thus legal to hunt.

Poacher: Person who slaughters more animals than they need to, illegally, so they can get rich. They're greedy and selfish, and don't give a shit about the animals they kill. They're literally taking some poor animal's life, and giving it a painful, slow death, just so they can get themselves a mansion or something. Have no issues going after endangered species and predators.

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Ohhh boy.
Jerry Manger, I certainly don't agree with most of your points on this. cx I appreciate your civil response regardless, and I hope you don't get roasted on here and that LD gives you the same respect back. I've seen similar topics go down in flames, so crossing fingers you don't become a target on here for your opinions and viewpoints. :p

In the meantime I'm gonna grab the popcorn.

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Jerry Manger, I want you to spend a year in Africa, working with anti-poaching teams. Poachers have been known to murder park rangers, attack tourists, and have been known to butcher livestock. Just recently, a British Pilot was killed when his helicopter was shot down by elephant poachers. Do you believe that to be acceptable?

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Evanuris, may you give me some proof to back up your claims? You know, links and of the such? I want to believe you, but I cannot unless you give me hard evidence.

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can you give US hard evidence that poachers aren't cruel?

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Your comment that humans only do good is laughable. Murder and abuse are not good whether its an animal or human suffering. Also you can find all the proof you need to see that poaching is a very real problem by searching it.

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Synchron, I'd like to ask if you know the definition of Burden of Proof. (BoP from now on) BoP in debates is basically telling who shows evidence and who does not. So, if someone says 'The BoP is shared', then both parties must provide proof. When one side must proof evidence while the other does not, it is usually chosen by the factor of what is commonly accepted. So let me give you an example of when BoP is not shared.

I want to argue that the world is actually flat.

My opponent argues the the world is round.

To everyone listening to this debate, I sound like an absolute idiot. Therefore, to prove my claim, I must find facts and evidence as to why, in my claim, that the world is flat.

Now back on topic.

Since I am debating multiple people at one time, I don't exactly have an exact claim on your side. So let me take you for example, Synchron.

Your claim is that all poachers are cruel.

My claim, to oppose your claim, is that not all poachers are cruel.

You have the Burden of Proof here. You need to prove to me that not just a few poachers are cruel- but that all poachers are cruel. That is nearly impossible, since you cannot look into every single poacher's mind and morality. But since you have chosen to do so, I ask that you prove to me that every single poacher alive is cruel.

I, overall, am claiming that not all poachers are as evil and cruel as Lioden and other media make them out to be.

That is a reasonable claim, right? I am saying that, yes, some can be cruel and heartless, but some can be just looking for a way to survive. Therefore, you and everyone else has the Burden of Proof to prove that all poachers are indeed cruel/heartless/greedy/or whatever you make them out to be.

Thank you for listening.

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Fawn, I'd like for you to give what I said a little more thought.

'Humans only do things that they believe to be good and just'

That they believe. Not what is good and just, but what their own individual morality considers bad and good. Why would you lie to someone if you knew it was bad, lead to something bad, and you had no good reason to lie? Would you still lie for the sake of lying?

For your example on murder and abuse, someone without sanity or morality would see murder or abuse as okay or even good. It does not matter what the rest of the world thinks, it matters what the person them self thinks. Why do you think people did slavery? To get work done on farms or factories. They had a reason to do it, and, even though many other people agree that slavery is wrong, that person who owns the slaves simply would not care. I do not condone slavery, I only say that some people have a different view on the same exact things than you do.

On your poaching statement, I want proof that comes from you guys. The proof that you people yourselves believe to be true and factual. If I try to find proof myself, I may try to warp it to my own beliefs. I want you and everyone else on this thread to give me what you want me to see, which I hope is true and factual evidence.

Again, BoP is on your side of debate. I cannot debate without you doing your side of the argument.

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I feel like Jerry Manger is being attacked left and right.Just wanted to let everyone know that Jerry brings up some great points! The opposing side does as well! Remember guys its just a game :)

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I just read your last 2 post and am a little confused. What exactly are you trying to debate here. Are you trying to say poaching is not real or are you saying that poaching is real but not all the poachers are bad people?

Also people do do things they know and feel to be wrong. And yes I do lie and when I do I don't feel it is right.

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I'd like you to take a look at this article about a trip to Africa that the actual Prince Harry went on last summer.

It talks about the efforts of him and his team to save the life of a rhino who was attacked by poachers while still very much alive, along with photos he took of all the poached animals they weren't able to save. Here is a direct quote from the article concerning the state of the rhino.

“Some poachers use a dart gun and tranquilize the animal so as not have to fire a shot that would be heard. They then hack their face off while the animal is paralysed. Local communities saw her stumbling through the bush and then alerted the authorities. Thanks to Dr William Fowlds and his team, Hope survived and is making a speedy recovery.”

I didn't have to dig into the deep, dark web to find this article. All you need to do is search the simple word "poaching' on Google and you'll find countless results about poaching and why it is bad.

We're not trying to attack anyone, we're simply stating that poaching as a whole is bad and is not something that should be condoned. Sure, perhaps there are some good poachers out there who may or may not kill for survival, who knows. But the fact of the matter is that if, and I do mean if such people do exist, the very vast majority of poachers kill for sport, fun, and money. They want that ivory, and they don't care if they animal is in pain when they take it.

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-Just gonna squeeze in here-

I would just like to say that I once watched a program with my nana (currently dying nana/grandma because of her lungs) and it was on poachers. People don't realize that Africa is a really hard place to live and the poacher speaking actually was a really nice and honest guy. He didn't lie about what he did. Some poachers are cruel and will leave an animal for dead but please don't be so quick to judge. Its like with the whole Muslim thing. Just because a few did horrid things all of a sudden any Muslim person is bad even worse than bad horrid absolutely the most horrid thing to ever touch this earth right? I do not think that is correct. It is wrong to judge people based on the things that are on the worse side. Africa is a bad place to live for many people full of poverty and in reality its not the poachers that make the most money its the people that buy from them. Most do it to feed their families. Again please do not be so quick to judge. Its very wrong.

Also I know could've put a few paragraphs in there but seriously they don't make any sense to me so I don't know where to put them so yeah LOVE YA! <3 Think good thoughts!!!

Outlaw out!!

-pounces off thread to go luv on friends-

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