The one or two who aren't bad? As the thread has stated before, the government in Africa is terrible. The citizens have to survive some way, and often the only way for many men is to hunt illegally, as in poaching. How do you know that there are only a small few of poachers who do so simply to survive? As has the thread also said before, the most terrible and shocking cases are given news reports and social media attention, rather than more mild and mostly tame cases. If every dead animal in Africa that died from something other than old age had an article about it, The whole world would be sick of it.

Along with your MRA analogy, many women do indeed accuse men falsely. How do you know every single claim by those thousands of women were true? Even if the man was cleared of his conviction, the man is shamed and often condemned no matter what. But either way, the MRA and feminists are an entirely different topic, we're getting off track.

On a side note, with your knowledge of MRAs and feminists, I must ask. Do you happen to be a feminist or MRA? You don't have to answer, just curious!

And, on another side note, I am a bit tired. I hope to speak to you all in the morning! God bless.

You have liked this post!

"The man is shamed and often condemned no matter what."

That's why news reports talk about what a 'promising career' these 'poor young boys' had ahead of them. That's why after a woman or girl accuses a man, she is bullied out of her school, her town, to the point of suicide.

Please. Don't give me 'but men get it so bad'.

From that alone, I think this isn't worth reading anymore. Maybe think about where you are directing your attentions.

http://i.imgur.com/f937MKa.jpg

Also: https://www.quora.com/Wildlife/Why-do-people-poach-wild-animals

A single rhino horn can go for $300k so you can see how profitable the industry can be. This is last year in Kenya: 638 Illegal Elephant Tusks Found At Kenyan Port worth $1.2 million.

Poaching is about money, not about 'supporting a family'. If it was about supporting a family, a man would hunt a gazelle, or impala, or something smaller and easier to catch.

'People poach wild animals - either live animals like parrots or animal parts like tiger skin, bones etc because there is a huge market for them by an uninformed public and due to some questionable traditional practices. If the demand from the educated well connected public in developed countries like USA and second world countries like China comes down, it may not be a guarantee that poaching would stop altogether but it would be greatly reduced to supply only local markets.'

Education needs to be taken to the places that still practise 'traditional' medicine.

Also, thanks to poaching, elephants are actually evolving to have shorter - or no tusks at all. Same with bighorn sheep - with less big horns.

You have liked this post!

Whoa, when did this thread get on feminism? Lol

"Poaching is about money, not about 'supporting a family'. If it was about supporting a family, a man would hunt a gazelle, or impala, or something smaller and easier to catch."

That's pretty much exactly what I've been saying with sustenance poachers so I'm just going to assume that most everyone here is talking about commercialized poachers. Time and time again people keep using the sustenance poacher's reasons for commercialized poachers which isn't going to work.

Commercialized poachers = elephants, rhinos, game that sells on an international market = rooted from organized crime

Sustenance poachers = gazelle, impala, any game you could kill with a small trap and knife = rooted from feeding family, getting by

That automatically proves Jerry's claim though; if you believe all commercialized poachers are evil and commercialized poachers are only a portion of poachers (commercialized and sustenance poachers existing, poaching means any illegal hunting).

As for the feminism thing, men can have their last lives ruined by false rape charges as well as women having their lives ruined by rape. No, the abuse of getting accused of raping is not as bad as being raped by a long shot, but it does happen and it does ruin lives.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging another side might be suffering too in any situation. It doesn't take away from anyone else's suffering as it's not a competition of suffering.

You have liked this post!

Has anyone actually lived in Africa? I spent my childhood growing up in South Africa, just a stones throw away from Kruger National Park. All poachers I came across were those who were part of organised crime, any non-financially viable creatures that were snared or caught in traps were left to rot on the side of the road, it was rare that they were taken home to feed the wife and kids :/ The poachers there were men, women, and sometimes children, doing it to get more money. It ranged from wealthy buisnessmen to local tribesmen who knew the land better than anyone else. They weren't doing it to better their lives, but because they were greedy.

You have liked this post!

Evanuris, you are aware that you've only met a small fraction of poachers? That those that you encountered do not represent the group as a whole? There are poachers that live all over the world, not just in Africa. We have acknowledged that as a whole poaching is a bad thing and needs to be stopped but the argument here is that, like with everything, not all poachers are greedy members of organized crime syndicates. What about the poachers that live in Zimbabwe, or other African countries? What about those in Asia? Brazil?

Also the argument that 'If it was about supporting a family, a man would hunt a gazelle, or impala, or something smaller and easier to catch.', many people strive to do more than just survive. Poaching is an alluring option, especially to those who aren't fully aware of the impact their actions have.

You have liked this post!

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/africa-wild/2014/may/05/war-on-poaching-cannot-be-won-unless-we-take-on-corruption

Thought I'd link that. Gives a pretty good insight on poaching and how it's more complex that it really is.

And for the person who apparently doesn't think that men don't have it bad, I suggest googling the central Park 5 rape case.

You have liked this post!

Lol, I'm late to the conversation. But I would like to say that I agree with Jerry's claim of not all poachers are evil, greedy, and selfish. I also would agree that for sustenance poachers they would hunt something far smaller and easier to catch and reason why is because they would probably have a hard time killing an elephant or a rhino. Something smaller equals a lesser chance of injury so that they can get back home to their families. The small poachers, the residents of the area who have to take from the land to survive hardly have the gun power needed to take down larger creatures. I doubt they would be greedy about getting money. Because if that were the case then they wouldn't be living in huts with dirt floors. Not struggling to get their child clean water to drink. If they were greedy about the money then they would have the money to live in the cities and be in the apartments. The poaching does have to do with the corrupt governments that are in Africa itself.

If that were fixed and the wealth more evenly distributed then that might be able to fix the problem within the continent. It is sad when you can see sprawling cities and nice sewer systems only to be able to drive to the next country and witness groups of tribes or people living in huts and terrible conditions. The same people who have to walk for miles to get supplies for their village, who are often attacked on the road by bandits and other folk. Sometimes they even have to defend their villages from elephants or rhinos that do sometimes come into their villages. It is not common but it does happen. Even lions sometimes come into villages accidentally, and if they see an easily obtainable meal, well they will go after it. Those are the sustenance poachers. Those are the people who have no other choice than to poach to survive and they don't think about how much money they can make off of it. Their family comes first and they need to feed them to ensure their survival or watch them slowly wither away. Or get parasites. Making an honest living when you can barely keep your family alive is pretty tough sometimes.

There are many accounts of people even in america who steal to survive. Steal food from others so that they can have a fighting chance. It isn't an honest living but they are starving and have no choice but to do it. You may even argue that they can go to a soup kitchen. They may not have one near them. It all ranges and there will never be a clear cut black and white scenario unless you take factors out.

You have liked this post!

I'm not trying to be mean or anything at all.

So I'm thinking about it from my point of view here. I'm a legal hunter trying to provide for my mom and my little sister. I hunt the legal amount of animals for my family. Poachers on the other hand hunt an illegal amount of animals for money. Now I'm not saying all poachers are bad because you have to think of all the poachers that got forced into the job. But they can stop poaching an illegal amount of animals, right? But MOST poachers honestly don't care about what they do. Most of the time they are thoughtless, selfish human beings. Most of my friends are hunters as well and we all keep well inside the legal limits of animal killing.

I'd also like to state that Evanuris is probably the only one here that grew up in Africa.

And that one poacher could kill one rhino a year and they'd be fine but I bet every poacher propably killed at least 25 rhinos each wich proves my point that poachers do for money and nothing else.

You have liked this post!

What you and Evanuris have both asserted is anecdotal evidencence; the logical fallacy of personal experience (your experience as a hunter and your friend's experiences are not everyone's in the world) and isolated examples (Evanuris cited what he/she saw in one portion of an entire continent full of countries) instead of evidence in studies, evidence, etc.

Even if it is most then OP's point remains as "most" is not all and it was asserted that not all poachers are evil.

You have liked this post!

The impression I get from both you and OP is that you both believe that poaching is acceptable, so long as the person is providing for their family. Would you and OP head out to Africa to snare and butcher an elephant, just because some rich man in America wanted you to get him a trophy? You'd do it just because the money would provide for your family? You'd risk your own life just to get a lit bit of $$$ from a fat cat with more money than sense? Poachers often get killed by rangers, especially when said poachers attack rangers and sometimes tourist groups. Sometimes they're killed by their own quarry.

So I ask you both, is poaching truly worth it when there are better, safer alternatives to slaughtering already endangered animals?

You have liked this post!

I'll throw another one your way.

Let's say you're a sheep farmer, your flock of 100 is worth $17,000 for per individual sheep. Each ewe in your heard is expecting a lamb, or twins. You're sheep are then stolen in the middle of the night, either from the field or the lambing shed where you think they're safe. When the culprit is caught, he claims he did it to "help his starving family" and yet, your family will now starve as you have no sheep to sell.

Poaching isn't just limited to wild animals, but livestock too.

You have liked this post!

"And that one poacher could kill one rhino a year and they'd be fine but I bet every poacher propably killed at least 25 rhinos each wich proves my point that poachers do for money and nothing else."

That in no way, shape, or form proves your point. There is no way for you to account for every single poacher that has killed an animal illegally. By saying that all poachers kill 'for money and nothing else' is not really a fair statement.



For example, if Congress passed a law that said something to the tune of 'Anyone who kills someone is the epitome of evil and will be put to death', in the same mentality that it's obvious that that way of thinking is flawed. There are many instances where someone has killed in self defense (e.g.,. an intruder is shot by the homeowner during a robbery) and some cases where someone had died due to an accident (e.g., a driver runs over a child who was chasing after a ball in the street) wouldn't you agree that the death penalty would be a bit steep in those instances?

Like many problems in life poaching is not a black and white issue, there are shades of grey and it's a little ignorant to put all poachers in a single category of 'evil, greedy, people'. Of course people can 'just stop poaching' but then they are right back where they started.

No one here (meaning those who have posted on this board) is 'pro poaching' but most realize that not all poachers are evil.

You have liked this post!

I'm sorry that's the impression you get, but you're wrong. I don't condone poaching at all. Kailani is right. Just because I don't think of it as a black and white issue doesn't mean I don't think it's wrong. I think stealing is wrong, but I understand why people do it. Understanding motives is the way you figure out ways to stop something.

You have liked this post!

You know what? I think like an 11 year old so leave me alone about that, ok?

It may be my individual experience but again, poachers can stop hunting an illegal amount of animals but they don't! Poachers are doing an illegal thing and just the nature of what they do makes people think about how they act. The selfishness of what they do makes me sick.

You have liked this post!

Uhh, alright? If that's your opinion, so be it.

I think I'll be withdrawing as this thread has been dragging on a while and I'm tired of retracing the same ground. Something this emotionally charged is a subject that should be researched and decided about on one's own though it was interesting to see the different perspectives. Ultimately, it can be debated all day, but opinions on both sides are pretty immaterial unless we actually take some action with em'.

Anyway, have a good day everybody.

You have liked this post!