Posted by -LOCKED - -ADDED TO THE GAME-Fix Albino Pass Rules || 1059+/-37

Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-02-13 09:45:20
For all who are worried- this is not to eliminate the base or even prevent it from passing at all, this is just to get the base to follow the rules of genetics that Lioden has, OR to significantly lower the chance of it cropping up outside of its genetic groups.

For me, this is the most frustrating thing in game.

The albino base can pass from anything. It ignores every piece of genetics in the game, and hurts specific color breeders hugely.

Albino is a Black Light Solid base. According to the wiki:
"If you were to cross two parents from the Black colour group, all of their subsequent offspring will have bases from the Black colour group. If you cross a Black colour group parent with a Cream colour group parent, you will end up with offspring from both the Black and Cream colour groups."

"Dark x Dark = Dark
Light x Light = Light
Dark x Light = 25% Dark, 25% Light, 50% Medium
Medium x Medium = 15% Dark, 15% Light, 70% Medium
Dark x Medium = 50% Dark, 50% Medium
Light x Medium = 50% Light, 50% Medium"

"Breeding with gradients is a bit simpler than shades. If you cross two Countershaded parents, all offspring will be Countershaded. If you cross two Solid parents, all offspring will be Solid. If you cross a Countershaded with a Solid, you can have cubs from either gradient!"

Now. Considering this information, let me show you my most recent litter, and a prime example of what albino is doing.

This is Concha
Her information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

Her mate for this most recent breeding was Lord Kumba
His information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

According to this, cubs should look only like this in respect to genetics:
Cream Group, Dark Shade, Countershaded Gradient.
Because it is a Cream x Cream breeding, all cubs are cream.
Because it is a Dark x Dark breeding, all cubs are dark.
Because it is a Countershaded x Countershaded breeding, all cubs are countershaded.

But then we get to her firstborn daughter.

This is the cub
I am not protecting her so that link will probably die out soon. To prevent this from being lost, here are all of the screenshots that pertain to the cub's information.

Currents and Stats, Parents
Breeding Info
Appearance

What is this albino?
Black, not Cream, Light, not Dark, Solid, not Countershaded.

This is a huge conflict in breeding and it is exceptionally difficult when a breeder has to deal with this in their litters.

The issue is that, with many breeders, not only the fact that albino can pass from anything and ignores all genetics, but how often it happens. If I have any sort of breeding going, from 2 lionesses to 20, at least 1-2 of the cubs will be albino.

What I am suggesting is as follows:
A: Making it so that albino obeys normal genetics like everything else
or, for all those who say that albino should be able to pass from anything because it's an 'unnatural' base (it's not achromia, it's not a mutation, it is a BASE, just a reminder!)
B: Significantly lowering the chance of it appearing randomly in litters. A 0.1-0.5% chance should suffice. There is no reason that it should show its face so often among our litters, make it a surprise rather than a disappointment.
Maximum Storm (#114957) suggested perhaps making it a lower chance for everything other than black with a slightly higher rate of appearing with black bases!
And now, thanks to Thalath and Bezthiel...
C: Adjust albinos classification to Black Light Solid Special. Black has a lot of specials already, but not many in that particular class (light solid). Restrain it to it's genetics, and then make it be an applicable special base like Onyx or Maltese. This way it can be a slightly more useful base, and it would fix the issue of how underappreciated the base is right now.
D: Suggested by Seabunny #114144. Make Achromia and Melanism inheritable mutations, and give Albino a new name, locking it into its own group but still allowing for people who like the idea behind it to be able to breed for Achromias that result in the same 'albino' look.
E: Combined Suggestions. Make Albino a special base, and then make it a breed only occurrence. No longer applicable from the oasis, a special class, the demand for Albinos and their appearance on rarer lions (high statters, tigons and leopons, other mutations etc), would skyrocket

I know that renaming albino is a rejected suggestion but I'm still going to keep the option here because I feel that giving as many possible fixes to the solution is a better idea than giving one suggestion that 90% of people dislike even if 80 of those 90% would support the fact that albino needs to be fixed somehow.

Edit 2/14
River #6903
"Yes. This made sense if we had no achromia mutation, but we do so...."
As they said, the Achromia mutation negates the need for albino to pass from anything. Albino isn't a mutation, so it should not pass like a mutation does. It should obey the normal base genetics like all other bases have to.

Edit 2/15
According to Taevali and Kristy, based on their experiences, the pass rate is roughly 15-20%, meaning that in 100 cubs bred from ANY base 15-20 of them will have albino bases. That is ridiculously high, and overpopulates the game with this base. According to Bezthiel, it was at one point only 3%, but it feels much more than that and may have been raised.

Edit 2/16
New fix suggestion implemented!

Edit 2/19
Coal #133177 has suggested that the rate be adjusted to something closer to 1/5000, to make it a rarer occurrence.

Edit 3/19
Adam #68231
Used the Scrying Stone before my Anjeer lioness gave birth (ended up using IBF on her anyway) and the first few results were almost all Albino, despite the stud being Sunset.

Edit 3/20
Brought up by TrotterTheOtter @27811
With how few breedings females have, the level at which albino crops up can be extremely detrimental to someone who is trying to obtain the base using just their female and an outside male. Especially if it's a Special-Special, like the July bases, the chance is already next to nothing. When you're getting albinos every litter, it's another cub less that you have a chance to get that special-special to pass. Not only is it useless on that front, but it also eliminates the chance of you obtaining a base that actually would help with breeding the base you're aiming for.

Edit 3/22
Genetics Newspost
Kudos to Nate #26405 for finding this.

This is the newspost in which Genetics were introduced. If you look a few paragraphs down, you find this quote:
aaaa.png
"Albinos can now no longer be selectively bred, and instead are a small random chance, much like a mutation. Breeding two albinos will not give you an albino unless the random chance happens. Albinos can occur in any pairing!"

I'd like to draw your attention to the last part of the first sentence. ". . . much like a mutation."

This is exactly the issue for which this thread was made. Achromia is a mutation, albino is a base. A base should not be passing like a mutation does. Not unless it is given 'special' status, and only appears within its own grouping, much like bases such as Prune or Maltese. Both bases occur rarely without a parent that carries the base, but they can occur randomly within the group of their color. If you need proof of this, I'm happy to go snatch up the little Prune baby my Anjeer and his non-prune lass made earlier this week. That random occurrence of the base is damaging to color breeders, and because it isn't even Special genetics, we have literally no use for it. To further this, by having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game is negating it's own money-maker. Mutations are, simply put, a huge part of the Lioden economy. These are mainly centered around the passable muts, but regardless, they are all selling for GB. GB is the lifeblood of Lioden, it is what keeps the game running. When you negate the functionality of mutations by simply having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game and it's makers are damaging themselves.

The reason it occurred randomly before mutations were input is because there were no genetics in place. Either way, the random chance infused with the base is useless and extremely harmful to breeders who go for color specifically. That is why this thread is here.

Edit: 5/20
RottAndArtist brings up a good point!
With the addition of Clear White to the endless list of bases Lioden has, Albino becomes even more useless. If it were combined with its group, or as Rott also suggested, had its pass rate extremely lowered, it may become more and more coveted!

It appears that the Mods have been making an attempt to counterbalance the distress around random albinos with certain updates, (ex, its use in Cloudburst breeding), but this does not make it OK to have this level of random albinos! 3.5% pass rate? That's ridiculous!!!

This is a plea to the mods, please, lets get this under control.

There may soon be a higher demand for the 'white' bases with the coming of Tigons. White Tigers could be a high demand creation due to the aesthetic. However, Clear White is a custom base. And it's a custom special base. This overrides Albinos use in this manner. By adjusting its class (special), or making it a breed only thing with a actually, genuinely low pass rate, we could see a rise in the number of people who enjoy and covet the albino base.

Also: Concha has died and was my sister's lion in the end. She was not saved due to lack of room, so her link is now dead!
If you don't support, please tell me why!


---


ALBINO PASS RATE SCRY STUDY
Official Results Document

Black Solid x Black Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Countershaded x Black Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Total Pass Rate: 4%

Cream Solid x Cream Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Cream Countershaded x Cream Countershaded
Total Rate: 0/50, 0% Albino Pass

Cream Total Pass Rate: 1%

Golden Solid x Golden Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Golden Countershaded x Golden Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Golden Total Pass Rate: 3%

Red Solid x Red Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Red Countershaded x Red Countershaded
Total Rate: 3/50, 6% Albino Pass

Red Total Pass Rate: 5%

TOTAL FINAL RESULT
Total Pass Rate: 14/400, 3.5%

It appears that Red has the highest pass rate of all, with a total 5% pass rate! This is followed by Black, then Gold, and finally Cream, with a 1% pass rate.

Even a 1% pass rate is far too high!
The HIGHEST pass rate for mutations is around 1 in 250, a 0.4% pass rate. Albino random occurance, if meant to be "like a mutation", should be at MOST a 0.5% pass rate. That's 7x less than what it is right now.



This suggestion has 1094 supports and 42 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/05/19 @ 11:35:34 by Razz {Side} (#36422)

Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-19 14:21:44
@Mheeto, Adam, and Wolfey
Thank you guys for the support! I 100% agree with you all, adding that little bit about the scrys to the page now.



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🦋 Trotter the
Otter 🦋 (#27811)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-03-20 15:59:45
I totally agree with lessening the amount of times it crops up. Especially since every heat a female has is important for super base breeders and it sucks having one wasted on two albinos



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-20 16:10:12
@Trotter
Definitely! That's a good point- especially if it's a Special-Special, like the July bases. Females have very very few breedings, and each one counts. When you're getting albinos every litter, it's another cub less that you have a chance to get that special-special to pass.



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[🐑] Lamia (#111191)

Protector
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Posted on
2018-03-20 16:22:49
Support! I'm tired of seeing so many albino's, especially when I'm trying to breed specific white markings which end up becoming "invisible" on them. Trying to breed in one color group becomes a nightmare with them stealing all the good markings.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-20 17:02:04
@Lamia
Oof, that's the bane of Vitiligo!!! Thank you for the support



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Shakshouka (#140969)

Renowned
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Posted on
2018-03-22 11:46:33
I totally agree. Albino is hated because of how common it is and it always shows up no matter what you're breeding, so I think making this change will make people appreciate it.



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Spookybirb .:G1
Primal:. (#140809)


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Posted on
2018-03-22 11:50:33
I love albino's but even i agree they are far too common and quite a nuisance!



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 11:55:08
@Shakshouka
I agree! It would definitely help bring it up to a more appreciated position. Thank you for the support

@Lucio
Thank you for the support!



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GayenaKing [Leonid
Project] (#74562)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-03-22 12:27:38
I was excited as I had some high stat cubs born today, two turned out to be albino, which is a massive disappointment. I have gotten so many albinos that now I just let them all die unless they have high stats that'll bring me a profit once they're trained.



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ChaosDeath🐱 (#2790)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 12:31:56
Also with the lowering the rate I'd love for it to be a special base, I actually swore it was so...



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 12:37:46
@Wolfey
Ugh, I know the feeling. I have a 1600 statter named FFuckingAlbino cause he showed up with it D:

@Chaos
Thank you for the support!



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Severinus [Dorsal
Scoundrel] (#59230)

Bone Collector
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Posted on
2018-03-22 12:45:52
Support. I feel like the excuse of albino being left in regardless of the achromia mutation is just stubbornness at this point. Like they're afraid to go back on their word regarding albino. It's just hardheadedness.

I honestly think the pass rate is so bad that I wouldn't even care if albino was totally removed.

It's not even true albinism:

"Albinism is a congenital disorder characterized by the complete or partial absence of pigment in the skin, hair and eyes."



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Edited on 22/03/18 @ 12:57:33 by Sev [Smilus Kimanjano] (#59230)

Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 13:00:19
@Sev
Honestly, I do agree. I feel like a complete removal of the base may be overkill, but making it a somewhat harder to pass base wouldn't hurt anyone. I was here before mutations such as Achromia released, and back then it wasn't quite so negative a thing when albino passed. Now, it's just frustrating. There's no love for the base, it provides no help in breeding goals as a base (instead it often hinders them), nor does it have any sort of value as a 'mutation' because of Achromia. If it is confined to its group, and given 'special' genetics, I feel it would be a much more valued base.

Thank you for the support!



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ChaosDeath🐱 (#2790)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 13:55:58
I feel like since it passes that's neat it was a LOT more so before they started adding all these near impossible to pass bases and the rate is awful. Even if you find it neat it's overkill and a half. I think it's neat as neat can be, and I have to agree that the rate if nothing else makes it go from a special neat occurrence to a nuisance real fast.

The fact that a random thing is kinda nifty but now we have bases that don't want to pass unless you sacrifice a firstborn and it's like all the time it feels like. To me that's the biggest issue, it's all the bloody time!

Of course I feel for people with projects, especially but not limited to the 'super bases', but to me the worst part even in that case is that even if you get multiple cubs they could all be albino and that's not even that hard to believe given the at least semi-recent rate I've noticed! It wasn't even always like this, and I wonder why it seems that kinda suddenly it's exploded like this. That's what really burns my biscuits! One could be called a fluke if the rate wasn't so high, same as any other not getting the base you need. But this rate is the worst and getting more than one/so often just is no where near the same as just a fail. Just my feelings about that though.

(Also do some kings just scy it more because in scry with this king it hardly pops up but with my other it's like 3/5 of the scrying. I'm not even joking!)



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 13:59:56
@Chaos
100% agreed. With the Super Specials it gets neigh impossible to accurately breed yourself the base because of how often albino appears! Thank you for the input!



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