Posted by -LOCKED - -ADDED TO THE GAME-Fix Albino Pass Rules || 1059+/-37

Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-02-13 09:45:20
For all who are worried- this is not to eliminate the base or even prevent it from passing at all, this is just to get the base to follow the rules of genetics that Lioden has, OR to significantly lower the chance of it cropping up outside of its genetic groups.

For me, this is the most frustrating thing in game.

The albino base can pass from anything. It ignores every piece of genetics in the game, and hurts specific color breeders hugely.

Albino is a Black Light Solid base. According to the wiki:
"If you were to cross two parents from the Black colour group, all of their subsequent offspring will have bases from the Black colour group. If you cross a Black colour group parent with a Cream colour group parent, you will end up with offspring from both the Black and Cream colour groups."

"Dark x Dark = Dark
Light x Light = Light
Dark x Light = 25% Dark, 25% Light, 50% Medium
Medium x Medium = 15% Dark, 15% Light, 70% Medium
Dark x Medium = 50% Dark, 50% Medium
Light x Medium = 50% Light, 50% Medium"

"Breeding with gradients is a bit simpler than shades. If you cross two Countershaded parents, all offspring will be Countershaded. If you cross two Solid parents, all offspring will be Solid. If you cross a Countershaded with a Solid, you can have cubs from either gradient!"

Now. Considering this information, let me show you my most recent litter, and a prime example of what albino is doing.

This is Concha
Her information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

Her mate for this most recent breeding was Lord Kumba
His information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

According to this, cubs should look only like this in respect to genetics:
Cream Group, Dark Shade, Countershaded Gradient.
Because it is a Cream x Cream breeding, all cubs are cream.
Because it is a Dark x Dark breeding, all cubs are dark.
Because it is a Countershaded x Countershaded breeding, all cubs are countershaded.

But then we get to her firstborn daughter.

This is the cub
I am not protecting her so that link will probably die out soon. To prevent this from being lost, here are all of the screenshots that pertain to the cub's information.

Currents and Stats, Parents
Breeding Info
Appearance

What is this albino?
Black, not Cream, Light, not Dark, Solid, not Countershaded.

This is a huge conflict in breeding and it is exceptionally difficult when a breeder has to deal with this in their litters.

The issue is that, with many breeders, not only the fact that albino can pass from anything and ignores all genetics, but how often it happens. If I have any sort of breeding going, from 2 lionesses to 20, at least 1-2 of the cubs will be albino.

What I am suggesting is as follows:
A: Making it so that albino obeys normal genetics like everything else
or, for all those who say that albino should be able to pass from anything because it's an 'unnatural' base (it's not achromia, it's not a mutation, it is a BASE, just a reminder!)
B: Significantly lowering the chance of it appearing randomly in litters. A 0.1-0.5% chance should suffice. There is no reason that it should show its face so often among our litters, make it a surprise rather than a disappointment.
Maximum Storm (#114957) suggested perhaps making it a lower chance for everything other than black with a slightly higher rate of appearing with black bases!
And now, thanks to Thalath and Bezthiel...
C: Adjust albinos classification to Black Light Solid Special. Black has a lot of specials already, but not many in that particular class (light solid). Restrain it to it's genetics, and then make it be an applicable special base like Onyx or Maltese. This way it can be a slightly more useful base, and it would fix the issue of how underappreciated the base is right now.
D: Suggested by Seabunny #114144. Make Achromia and Melanism inheritable mutations, and give Albino a new name, locking it into its own group but still allowing for people who like the idea behind it to be able to breed for Achromias that result in the same 'albino' look.
E: Combined Suggestions. Make Albino a special base, and then make it a breed only occurrence. No longer applicable from the oasis, a special class, the demand for Albinos and their appearance on rarer lions (high statters, tigons and leopons, other mutations etc), would skyrocket

I know that renaming albino is a rejected suggestion but I'm still going to keep the option here because I feel that giving as many possible fixes to the solution is a better idea than giving one suggestion that 90% of people dislike even if 80 of those 90% would support the fact that albino needs to be fixed somehow.

Edit 2/14
River #6903
"Yes. This made sense if we had no achromia mutation, but we do so...."
As they said, the Achromia mutation negates the need for albino to pass from anything. Albino isn't a mutation, so it should not pass like a mutation does. It should obey the normal base genetics like all other bases have to.

Edit 2/15
According to Taevali and Kristy, based on their experiences, the pass rate is roughly 15-20%, meaning that in 100 cubs bred from ANY base 15-20 of them will have albino bases. That is ridiculously high, and overpopulates the game with this base. According to Bezthiel, it was at one point only 3%, but it feels much more than that and may have been raised.

Edit 2/16
New fix suggestion implemented!

Edit 2/19
Coal #133177 has suggested that the rate be adjusted to something closer to 1/5000, to make it a rarer occurrence.

Edit 3/19
Adam #68231
Used the Scrying Stone before my Anjeer lioness gave birth (ended up using IBF on her anyway) and the first few results were almost all Albino, despite the stud being Sunset.

Edit 3/20
Brought up by TrotterTheOtter @27811
With how few breedings females have, the level at which albino crops up can be extremely detrimental to someone who is trying to obtain the base using just their female and an outside male. Especially if it's a Special-Special, like the July bases, the chance is already next to nothing. When you're getting albinos every litter, it's another cub less that you have a chance to get that special-special to pass. Not only is it useless on that front, but it also eliminates the chance of you obtaining a base that actually would help with breeding the base you're aiming for.

Edit 3/22
Genetics Newspost
Kudos to Nate #26405 for finding this.

This is the newspost in which Genetics were introduced. If you look a few paragraphs down, you find this quote:
aaaa.png
"Albinos can now no longer be selectively bred, and instead are a small random chance, much like a mutation. Breeding two albinos will not give you an albino unless the random chance happens. Albinos can occur in any pairing!"

I'd like to draw your attention to the last part of the first sentence. ". . . much like a mutation."

This is exactly the issue for which this thread was made. Achromia is a mutation, albino is a base. A base should not be passing like a mutation does. Not unless it is given 'special' status, and only appears within its own grouping, much like bases such as Prune or Maltese. Both bases occur rarely without a parent that carries the base, but they can occur randomly within the group of their color. If you need proof of this, I'm happy to go snatch up the little Prune baby my Anjeer and his non-prune lass made earlier this week. That random occurrence of the base is damaging to color breeders, and because it isn't even Special genetics, we have literally no use for it. To further this, by having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game is negating it's own money-maker. Mutations are, simply put, a huge part of the Lioden economy. These are mainly centered around the passable muts, but regardless, they are all selling for GB. GB is the lifeblood of Lioden, it is what keeps the game running. When you negate the functionality of mutations by simply having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game and it's makers are damaging themselves.

The reason it occurred randomly before mutations were input is because there were no genetics in place. Either way, the random chance infused with the base is useless and extremely harmful to breeders who go for color specifically. That is why this thread is here.

Edit: 5/20
RottAndArtist brings up a good point!
With the addition of Clear White to the endless list of bases Lioden has, Albino becomes even more useless. If it were combined with its group, or as Rott also suggested, had its pass rate extremely lowered, it may become more and more coveted!

It appears that the Mods have been making an attempt to counterbalance the distress around random albinos with certain updates, (ex, its use in Cloudburst breeding), but this does not make it OK to have this level of random albinos! 3.5% pass rate? That's ridiculous!!!

This is a plea to the mods, please, lets get this under control.

There may soon be a higher demand for the 'white' bases with the coming of Tigons. White Tigers could be a high demand creation due to the aesthetic. However, Clear White is a custom base. And it's a custom special base. This overrides Albinos use in this manner. By adjusting its class (special), or making it a breed only thing with a actually, genuinely low pass rate, we could see a rise in the number of people who enjoy and covet the albino base.

Also: Concha has died and was my sister's lion in the end. She was not saved due to lack of room, so her link is now dead!
If you don't support, please tell me why!


---


ALBINO PASS RATE SCRY STUDY
Official Results Document

Black Solid x Black Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Countershaded x Black Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Total Pass Rate: 4%

Cream Solid x Cream Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Cream Countershaded x Cream Countershaded
Total Rate: 0/50, 0% Albino Pass

Cream Total Pass Rate: 1%

Golden Solid x Golden Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Golden Countershaded x Golden Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Golden Total Pass Rate: 3%

Red Solid x Red Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Red Countershaded x Red Countershaded
Total Rate: 3/50, 6% Albino Pass

Red Total Pass Rate: 5%

TOTAL FINAL RESULT
Total Pass Rate: 14/400, 3.5%

It appears that Red has the highest pass rate of all, with a total 5% pass rate! This is followed by Black, then Gold, and finally Cream, with a 1% pass rate.

Even a 1% pass rate is far too high!
The HIGHEST pass rate for mutations is around 1 in 250, a 0.4% pass rate. Albino random occurance, if meant to be "like a mutation", should be at MOST a 0.5% pass rate. That's 7x less than what it is right now.



This suggestion has 1094 supports and 42 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/05/19 @ 11:35:34 by Razz {Side} (#36422)

meow mix (#94139)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-03-22 14:10:33
Oh my gosh, albino is SO annoying! I just had an albino cub born from a Red Medium Countershaded Special dad and a Red Light Countershaded Common mom and like??? what?????????????

I would love to see this fixed, I personally have no appreciation for the albino base but I feel like I wouldn't hate it quite so much if it would just stick to passing from the black colour group! I get that it's a weird base, but that doesn't mean it has to be everywhere!

Regardless of the changes made, whether it's just to reduce the chance of it happening, or if it's to adjust it to follow the genetics rules, I support this suggestion 100%!



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Simbelmyne [G2
sidereal] (#37175)

Astral
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Posted on
2018-03-22 14:12:35
Not supported. I don't like albino, but the whole point of it in the new genetics scheme was that it appeared as a random foil. I see no reason to change (and as a Black breeder on both accounts I don't really get that many of them; maybe you're unlucky!)



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ChaosDeath🐱 (#2790)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-03-22 14:31:53
@Simbelmyne
Maybe. Maybe your luck is good (or bad depending how you fee). It's hard to say.

Even if it's bad luck, it's weird so many people pop them so often, and the rate of multiple randoms in a litter.

I find it interesting actually seeing different people's luck. I wonder if anyone has thought about tracking this further.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-03-22 14:39:02
@Jess
Thank you for support!

@Simbelmyne
Your opinion is your own. If you'll notice, one of the suggestions is not completely removing its chance to pass randomly, but simply lowering it significantly. That way it would become a rather exciting find in a litter, rather than a smack in the face. As you're a black breeder, you don't have the same impact as breeders such as myself (cream and red), do. Albinos aren't quite as unhelpful, as they're technically still within the given base group. With people like myself, I get an albino cub and it's immediately useless to me. I can't breed her because she's going to completely destroy all of my projects. It, when I'm breeding out to other studs, wastes a breeding. It's pretty sad when I spend 1000 SB on a breeding to a particular stud that I need for my project and then get 1 cub. When that one cub happens to be albino, then I'm immediately 1000 SB down the drain, along with another breeding with whatever lioness I used. For Special Specials like Sunset females, that 1 breeding could have been the difference in achieving a cub that may help with the project in the future rather than just a useless cub that can't help me or anyone else I work with.

Just another note- I do feel like random albinos appear MORE often in the other base groups than within black. I very rarely get them from my black lionesses, but I get them all the time out of my red and cream girls, particularly my fierys.



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Edited on 22/03/18 @ 14:41:35 by Razz {Side} (#36422)

Minnowchaser [side] (#124486)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 14:49:09
I won't keep albino lionesses as breeders because I get enough albinos as is. If I get an albino cub, I get rid of it unless its at least worth the cheapest base changer I can find. When I first started Lioden, some of my favorite lionesses were albino; it can be a really gorgeous base for a lot of markings but is worthless to me now. Support!



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 15:16:57
@Minnow
Thank you for the support!



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Deku (#117676)

Flirty
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Posted on
2018-03-22 17:45:03
@Simbelmyne A lot of people have already pointed out why the albino mechanic is outdated, redundant, and unnecessarily frustrating. It's a relic from a time before mutations existed, and has no reason to be a special mechanic anymore. And moreso, it appears far too often. You've been lucky, many breeders including myself can testify how frustrating it is to have this base pop up all the time.



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Simbelmyne [G2
sidereal] (#37175)

Astral
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Posted on
2018-03-22 18:18:12
Deku the Albino mechanics as it appears in the “new” genetics absolutely does not predate mutations lol. In the design of the new genetics Albino was specifically coded to appear randomly.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 18:37:17
@Simbelmyne
As I remember it, albino appeared randomly before mutations. That may have been because of the lack of genetics, but either way the idea of it passing randomly is outdated. It appeared before mutations, and continued to appear after mutations. It's an old system idea, and in many people's opinion, should be removed. We respect that you disagree, but I'd appreciate if you'd read the entire thread to see the extra suggestions and possibly offer a solution that would satisfy people like yourself as well!



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-22 19:01:44
Genetics Newspost
Kudos to Nate #26405 for finding this.

This is the newspost in which Genetics were introduced. If you look a few paragraphs down, you find this quote:
aaaa.png
"Albinos can now no longer be selectively bred, and instead are a small random chance, much like a mutation. Breeding two albinos will not give you an albino unless the random chance happens. Albinos can occur in any pairing!"

I'd like to draw your attention to the last part of the first sentence. ". . . much like a mutation."

This is exactly the issue for which this thread was made. Achromia is a mutation, albino is a base. A base should not be passing like a mutation does. Not unless it is given 'special' status, and only appears within its own grouping, much like bases such as Prune or Maltese. Both bases occur rarely without a parent that carries the base, but they can occur randomly within the group of their color. If you need proof of this, I'm happy to go snatch up the little Prune baby my Anjeer and his non-prune lass made earlier this week. That random occurrence of the base is damaging to color breeders, and because it isn't even Special genetics, we have literally no use for it. To further this, by having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game is negating it's own money-maker. Mutations are, simply put, a huge part of the Lioden economy. These are mainly centered around the passable muts, but regardless, they are all selling for GB. GB is the lifeblood of Lioden, it is what keeps the game running. When you negate the functionality of mutations by simply having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game and it's makers are damaging themselves.

The reason it occurred randomly before mutations were input is because there were no genetics in place. Either way, the random chance infused with the base is useless and extremely harmful to breeders who go for color specifically. That is why this thread is here.



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Edited on 22/03/18 @ 19:04:47 by Razz {Side} (#36422)

GayenaKing [Leonid
Project] (#74562)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-03-25 10:44:26
https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?id=794114611475
https://www.lioden.com/lion.php?id=794115816900
I had two litters born today, out of four cubs THREE are albino, and the one with vitiligo is ruined because of it, 10-20% of my cubs are albino, and it's to the point I don't want to play anymore. I'm breeding specifically for special bases with stats 600+, and these albinos are literally costing me money.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

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Posted on
2018-03-25 10:46:27
@Wolfey
Oof, that's a super shitty roll! I'm sorry, I hope tomorrow's luck is better.

I hate losing SB/GB to studdings with just shitty albinos born.



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GayenaKing [Leonid
Project] (#74562)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-03-25 10:53:07
It's not even losing currency from failed studdings, it's losing currency because I sell most of my cubs and no one wants an albino. They're so common and hated at this point that almost no one buys them.



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[🐑] Lamia (#111191)

Protector
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Posted on
2018-03-25 10:58:32
I always sell my albinos for cheap as either Gorilla Enclave fodder or Karma fodder
It's bad enough I have so many male cubs taking all the good markings, having albinos do the same on top of that is a double whammy for me
I really wish something would be done about this, I'm going broke lately due to this



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-03-25 10:59:10
@Lamia
Ugh, I know the feeling.
Thank you for the support!



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