Posted by -LOCKED - -ADDED TO THE GAME-Fix Albino Pass Rules || 1059+/-37

Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-02-13 09:45:20
For all who are worried- this is not to eliminate the base or even prevent it from passing at all, this is just to get the base to follow the rules of genetics that Lioden has, OR to significantly lower the chance of it cropping up outside of its genetic groups.

For me, this is the most frustrating thing in game.

The albino base can pass from anything. It ignores every piece of genetics in the game, and hurts specific color breeders hugely.

Albino is a Black Light Solid base. According to the wiki:
"If you were to cross two parents from the Black colour group, all of their subsequent offspring will have bases from the Black colour group. If you cross a Black colour group parent with a Cream colour group parent, you will end up with offspring from both the Black and Cream colour groups."

"Dark x Dark = Dark
Light x Light = Light
Dark x Light = 25% Dark, 25% Light, 50% Medium
Medium x Medium = 15% Dark, 15% Light, 70% Medium
Dark x Medium = 50% Dark, 50% Medium
Light x Medium = 50% Light, 50% Medium"

"Breeding with gradients is a bit simpler than shades. If you cross two Countershaded parents, all offspring will be Countershaded. If you cross two Solid parents, all offspring will be Solid. If you cross a Countershaded with a Solid, you can have cubs from either gradient!"

Now. Considering this information, let me show you my most recent litter, and a prime example of what albino is doing.

This is Concha
Her information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

Her mate for this most recent breeding was Lord Kumba
His information is as follows:
Nacre
Cream Dark Countershaded special

According to this, cubs should look only like this in respect to genetics:
Cream Group, Dark Shade, Countershaded Gradient.
Because it is a Cream x Cream breeding, all cubs are cream.
Because it is a Dark x Dark breeding, all cubs are dark.
Because it is a Countershaded x Countershaded breeding, all cubs are countershaded.

But then we get to her firstborn daughter.

This is the cub
I am not protecting her so that link will probably die out soon. To prevent this from being lost, here are all of the screenshots that pertain to the cub's information.

Currents and Stats, Parents
Breeding Info
Appearance

What is this albino?
Black, not Cream, Light, not Dark, Solid, not Countershaded.

This is a huge conflict in breeding and it is exceptionally difficult when a breeder has to deal with this in their litters.

The issue is that, with many breeders, not only the fact that albino can pass from anything and ignores all genetics, but how often it happens. If I have any sort of breeding going, from 2 lionesses to 20, at least 1-2 of the cubs will be albino.

What I am suggesting is as follows:
A: Making it so that albino obeys normal genetics like everything else
or, for all those who say that albino should be able to pass from anything because it's an 'unnatural' base (it's not achromia, it's not a mutation, it is a BASE, just a reminder!)
B: Significantly lowering the chance of it appearing randomly in litters. A 0.1-0.5% chance should suffice. There is no reason that it should show its face so often among our litters, make it a surprise rather than a disappointment.
Maximum Storm (#114957) suggested perhaps making it a lower chance for everything other than black with a slightly higher rate of appearing with black bases!
And now, thanks to Thalath and Bezthiel...
C: Adjust albinos classification to Black Light Solid Special. Black has a lot of specials already, but not many in that particular class (light solid). Restrain it to it's genetics, and then make it be an applicable special base like Onyx or Maltese. This way it can be a slightly more useful base, and it would fix the issue of how underappreciated the base is right now.
D: Suggested by Seabunny #114144. Make Achromia and Melanism inheritable mutations, and give Albino a new name, locking it into its own group but still allowing for people who like the idea behind it to be able to breed for Achromias that result in the same 'albino' look.
E: Combined Suggestions. Make Albino a special base, and then make it a breed only occurrence. No longer applicable from the oasis, a special class, the demand for Albinos and their appearance on rarer lions (high statters, tigons and leopons, other mutations etc), would skyrocket

I know that renaming albino is a rejected suggestion but I'm still going to keep the option here because I feel that giving as many possible fixes to the solution is a better idea than giving one suggestion that 90% of people dislike even if 80 of those 90% would support the fact that albino needs to be fixed somehow.

Edit 2/14
River #6903
"Yes. This made sense if we had no achromia mutation, but we do so...."
As they said, the Achromia mutation negates the need for albino to pass from anything. Albino isn't a mutation, so it should not pass like a mutation does. It should obey the normal base genetics like all other bases have to.

Edit 2/15
According to Taevali and Kristy, based on their experiences, the pass rate is roughly 15-20%, meaning that in 100 cubs bred from ANY base 15-20 of them will have albino bases. That is ridiculously high, and overpopulates the game with this base. According to Bezthiel, it was at one point only 3%, but it feels much more than that and may have been raised.

Edit 2/16
New fix suggestion implemented!

Edit 2/19
Coal #133177 has suggested that the rate be adjusted to something closer to 1/5000, to make it a rarer occurrence.

Edit 3/19
Adam #68231
Used the Scrying Stone before my Anjeer lioness gave birth (ended up using IBF on her anyway) and the first few results were almost all Albino, despite the stud being Sunset.

Edit 3/20
Brought up by TrotterTheOtter @27811
With how few breedings females have, the level at which albino crops up can be extremely detrimental to someone who is trying to obtain the base using just their female and an outside male. Especially if it's a Special-Special, like the July bases, the chance is already next to nothing. When you're getting albinos every litter, it's another cub less that you have a chance to get that special-special to pass. Not only is it useless on that front, but it also eliminates the chance of you obtaining a base that actually would help with breeding the base you're aiming for.

Edit 3/22
Genetics Newspost
Kudos to Nate #26405 for finding this.

This is the newspost in which Genetics were introduced. If you look a few paragraphs down, you find this quote:
aaaa.png
"Albinos can now no longer be selectively bred, and instead are a small random chance, much like a mutation. Breeding two albinos will not give you an albino unless the random chance happens. Albinos can occur in any pairing!"

I'd like to draw your attention to the last part of the first sentence. ". . . much like a mutation."

This is exactly the issue for which this thread was made. Achromia is a mutation, albino is a base. A base should not be passing like a mutation does. Not unless it is given 'special' status, and only appears within its own grouping, much like bases such as Prune or Maltese. Both bases occur rarely without a parent that carries the base, but they can occur randomly within the group of their color. If you need proof of this, I'm happy to go snatch up the little Prune baby my Anjeer and his non-prune lass made earlier this week. That random occurrence of the base is damaging to color breeders, and because it isn't even Special genetics, we have literally no use for it. To further this, by having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game is negating it's own money-maker. Mutations are, simply put, a huge part of the Lioden economy. These are mainly centered around the passable muts, but regardless, they are all selling for GB. GB is the lifeblood of Lioden, it is what keeps the game running. When you negate the functionality of mutations by simply having a base that is "much like a mutation", the game and it's makers are damaging themselves.

The reason it occurred randomly before mutations were input is because there were no genetics in place. Either way, the random chance infused with the base is useless and extremely harmful to breeders who go for color specifically. That is why this thread is here.

Edit: 5/20
RottAndArtist brings up a good point!
With the addition of Clear White to the endless list of bases Lioden has, Albino becomes even more useless. If it were combined with its group, or as Rott also suggested, had its pass rate extremely lowered, it may become more and more coveted!

It appears that the Mods have been making an attempt to counterbalance the distress around random albinos with certain updates, (ex, its use in Cloudburst breeding), but this does not make it OK to have this level of random albinos! 3.5% pass rate? That's ridiculous!!!

This is a plea to the mods, please, lets get this under control.

There may soon be a higher demand for the 'white' bases with the coming of Tigons. White Tigers could be a high demand creation due to the aesthetic. However, Clear White is a custom base. And it's a custom special base. This overrides Albinos use in this manner. By adjusting its class (special), or making it a breed only thing with a actually, genuinely low pass rate, we could see a rise in the number of people who enjoy and covet the albino base.

Also: Concha has died and was my sister's lion in the end. She was not saved due to lack of room, so her link is now dead!
If you don't support, please tell me why!


---


ALBINO PASS RATE SCRY STUDY
Official Results Document

Black Solid x Black Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Countershaded x Black Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Black Total Pass Rate: 4%

Cream Solid x Cream Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Cream Countershaded x Cream Countershaded
Total Rate: 0/50, 0% Albino Pass

Cream Total Pass Rate: 1%

Golden Solid x Golden Solid
Total Rate: 1/50, 2% Albino Pass

Golden Countershaded x Golden Countershaded
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Golden Total Pass Rate: 3%

Red Solid x Red Solid
Total Rate: 2/50, 4% Albino Pass

Red Countershaded x Red Countershaded
Total Rate: 3/50, 6% Albino Pass

Red Total Pass Rate: 5%

TOTAL FINAL RESULT
Total Pass Rate: 14/400, 3.5%

It appears that Red has the highest pass rate of all, with a total 5% pass rate! This is followed by Black, then Gold, and finally Cream, with a 1% pass rate.

Even a 1% pass rate is far too high!
The HIGHEST pass rate for mutations is around 1 in 250, a 0.4% pass rate. Albino random occurance, if meant to be "like a mutation", should be at MOST a 0.5% pass rate. That's 7x less than what it is right now.



This suggestion has 1094 supports and 42 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/05/19 @ 11:35:34 by Razz {Side} (#36422)

πŸ”΅ Saturn [lion
skulls] (#38235)


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Posted on
2018-02-17 10:34:51
I think it would be nice if it was changed to black light solid special. There aren't currently any applicable bases in that particular group.

Also, albino is currently black light solid common. You said countershaded in the main post.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-02-17 11:30:03
@Saturn
Did I? I know I said Countershaded a few times lmfao, I'll go correct it. I know it's solid (I'm just used to saying countershaded, as most of my breedings are to countershaded lions.) Thank you for letting me know!



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Deku (#117676)

Flirty
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Posted on
2018-02-18 14:37:51
I breed only red and black bases, so I never really noticed. But now that you mention it, it's annoying how high of a rate Albino appears. It really feels like you got duped out of something better.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-02-18 15:13:39
@Deku
Totally understandable. I wouldn't really have... gotten so sassy about it, but it's happened to me every breeding for several weeks now and it just got to be too much



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Sluggo (#98746)

Ill-Natured
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Posted on
2018-02-19 09:05:59
No support because I think it adds a bit of chance to the game - if rules were followed exactly then there'd be no fun. Albinos do suck to randomly get, but sometimes they're a nice change of pace.



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Bezthiel πŸ‰ (#81210)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2018-02-19 09:10:02
It seems like though, at this point, the entire idea of Albino has been replaced by the mutation Achromia or combo bases. Albino isn't a fun thing to get when you're breeding exclusively in your own color and shade - blacks have no use to me, for instance, because I breed golds. It's not really ever a nice change of pace, it's just a lion that could have been useful and isn't. But an Achromia is a fun, random thing to get!

And if I'm breeding lots of lions together just to get a lot of different bases, now we have combo bases for that element of randomness.



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Razz {Side} (#36422)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2018-02-19 09:16:41
@Slug
As Bexthiel said, the use of albino cropping up randomly has been replaced with Achromia, mutations (such as AMPs), and now the Combo Bases and Combo Mane. It's simply an inconvenience for any breeders of different color groups.

On top of that, one of the options was not to remove it entirely, but rather nerf the chance of it appearing randomly. Make it something extra small that means it maybe is a somewhat pleasant surprise. Right now it's simply too much, and it gets to be frustrating for myself and other specific color group breeders.

Maybe if it could adapt to fit each colorgroup it appeared in it would be less frustrating, but it is conflicting with too many sections of the genetics- shade, gradient, and color group. It screws over those who breed for specific bases.



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Adora (#129481)


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Posted on
2018-02-19 19:46:07
*aggressively supports*



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Crossflare (#56198)

Savage
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Posted on
2018-02-19 20:57:50
The albino base was meant to randomly pop up it's not broken at all. Albino is supossed to be an exception to the normal base genetics not sure why you want to quote fix albino genetics. I don't support this what your suggesting is literally making albino like most other bases which it was never meant to be like in first place. The genetics aren't broken it is supposed to randomly appear. I don't support this sorry.



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Edited on 19/02/18 @ 20:59:48 by Hasa Diga Eebowai (#56198)

GayenaKing [Leonid
Project] (#74562)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-02-19 21:07:32
@hasa
Its not a mutation so why should it pop up randomly? And its nothing special, it crops up way way too often to even be desired. The chance for it to pop up needs to atleast be lowered.
For example, my king has currently sired 99 cubs, 9 of which are albino. While his base is in the black color group, thats still about 9% of all his cubs, not counting ones that have been killed or tossed out in some way because I've definitely killed off a few dud cubs, some of which I remember being albino.
As is, albino is a curse. Lowering the chance of getting it would make it more of a pleasant surprise, like it should be.



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Crossflare (#56198)

Savage
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Posted on
2018-02-19 21:09:30
I was told it was told it was supposed to be the exception to the genetics rules, which is what makes it different and to be honest there isn't anything broken about it. It's a common base. That doesn't really follow the genetics rules maybe they should lower how much it passes but I like the base itself so I'd rather it just pass less often like maybe 10% of the time or something. Cause albino already floods the market anyway which most common bases do anyway.



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Edited on 19/02/18 @ 21:13:27 by Hasa Diga Eebowai (#56198)

GayenaKing [Leonid
Project] (#74562)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-02-19 21:13:28
Its detrimental to everyone who breeds for a specific base and many people dont think the base even looks good. It definitely needs to at least show up less. I wouldn't care if the base was thrown out entirely. Its not a.mutation there is no reason as to why it should randomly show up let alone show up so often.



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Razz [Clean Sidereal
Svelte] (#18166)

Phoenix
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Posted on
2018-02-19 21:34:19
@Hasa
I don't mean to say that it is broken. I am 100% aware of the fact that it is a purposeful implementation into the game. What I am suggesting is not to 'fix' the genetics, but rather to force them to comply to regular genetics just like everything else. The implementation of the Achromia mutation negates the need for the base to appear randomly, and as Wolfey has stated, it is a huge detriment to any breeder of a specific base group, gradient, or shade. If it was adjusted to appear less often, then it would be a much more pleasant surprise, rather than a wasted breeding. Those like me who spend thousands of SB studding to other kings with specific color groups that we don't have lose large portions of our income to albino cubs. It sucks to pay 500 SB for a breeding and then get not only get a one cub litter, but also have that 1 cub be albino, a base that conflicts with every bit of what you're breeding for.



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Razz [Clean Sidereal
Svelte] (#18166)

Phoenix
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Posted on
2018-02-19 21:35:30
That is why, for people like you who like the random aspect, one of the suggestions is for albino to appear less often, making it a happy surprise rather than a depressing one.



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Coal (#133177)


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Posted on
2018-02-19 23:23:01
I wouldn't want the base to disappear entirely; it's the only all-white base.

I still say it's inheritance should be made normal, though I can also see the argument for keeping it as a random event and making it much rarer, like 1/5,000 or something. That would make it desirable. We already have mutations for that 'rare random event' feel though.



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