Posted by "Neotenous"/"insular dwarfism"

🥀 (#12402)

Heavenly
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2018-07-07 17:13:17
There are so many ugly and some very disturbing suggestions here... so I thought of why not a cute pleasing to the eyes "mutation"!
~~~

petite_lionboy_by_bekiss-dcgl92n.png
petite_lionbae2_by_bekiss-dcgozgl.png
petite_lioness_by_bekiss-dcgoqiu.png
petite_lionessby_by_bekiss-dcgp1wc.png
(scroll downer for other mock-up sketches)

*changed name to “neotenous” (used to be called "petite")
other name: "insular dwarfism"



It’s a smaller lion (and cuter)
-Maybe the size of a leopard or cheetah?
lion_cheetah_size_by_bekiss-dcgkxwc.png
-It would be healthy and breed-able. Can be Kinged.
-Inheritable? Can be passed down by both mother and father. ?
-It will be for all age stages. Doesn't need to have different artwork for newborn and young cub, 'cause those are already small (that artwork could be resized smaller, if needed).

The effect it could have in game-play could be:
- That it has less chance when catching big preys (on its one it cannot), but more likely to catch small preys.
- It is harder to breed, more chance to fail breeding, and if bred with Primal there's a 50 chance of cub mortality even with nesting (Primals are huge). *But if this coding is too much trouble then just make them not able to breed with Primals and 25-50% chance of failing breeding for "small" male studs with any non-"small", (females already have a fertility %).
- Shorter gestation periods and sexually mature faster. (took that from wikipedia.) *could be hard to code, so ignore it?
- Stat penalty.

~~~~

mutation_tag2_by_bekiss-dcgl0r7.png

Neoteny: "Some common neotenous physical traits in domesticated animals (mainly dogs, pigs, ferrets, cats, and even foxes) include: floppy ears, changes in reproductive cycle, curly tails, piebald coloration, fewer or shortened vertebra, large eyes, rounded forehead, large ears, and shortened muzzle."(from wikipedia) Neoteny is very common in humans!

This suggestion only refers to mammalian neoteny, and neoteny does not affect every physical traits in all cases:
neoteny = the retention of some juvenile characteristics in adulthood

So in theory, these lions can have normal full manes.

The neotenous lion doesn't need to have shorter gestations and mature sexually faster.

~~~~
Insular dwarfism
the "pygmy elephant" is a good example click and info: click

In looks It's not identical to the "dwarfism" mutation here, because the body is proportionate, limbs will be average or slightly shorter but not really noticeable. (Made edit pics to show that. above.)
This type can be healthy and have a life span similar to their bigger relatives (both the pygmy elephants and asian-african elephants can live up to 70 years, and the pygmy sexually matures faster:10yrs. vs14yrs)


*Got another idea: what if you can get this mutation when breeding with dwarfs?
(edit: Not, 'cause insular dwarfism is completely different from that type of dwarfism that actually deforms the body proportions. and insular dwarfism is evolution/species adapting to an environment.)
petite_lionboy_with_dwarf_by_bekiss-dcgla5l.png

Lioden includes Madagascar? (click) so pygmy lions can be a thing here...?

~~~~

I'm not suggesting amphibian's paedomorphosis (or for this "mutation" to be called Paedomorphosis.) Axolotl are pedomorphic species, but they are not described with the word neoteny (click)

Info! :D (from encyclopedia britannica)
Paedomorphosis: "retention by an organism of juvenile or even larval traits into later life. There are two aspects of paedomorphosis: acceleration of sexual maturation relative to the rest of development (progenesis) and retardation of bodily development with respect to the onset of reproductive activity (neoteny).

Classic examples include certain amphibian species in which development is arrested so that the larval form and aquatic habit persist as the organism attains sexual maturity and becomes capable of reproduction. In some species only a few morphological features are retarded, but the number of features retarded may differ from species to species. Adult humans, for example, display various neotenic body features that other adult primates do not.
In other species all morphological development is retarded; the organism is juvenilized but sexually mature. Such shifts of reproductive capability would appear to have adaptive significance to organisms that exhibit it. In terms of evolutionary theory, the process of paedomorphosis suggests that larval stages and developmental phases of existing organisms may give rise, under certain circumstances, to wholly new organisms."

Source: (click)

~~~~~

It seems, the difference between neoteny and insular dwarfism, (of mammals), is that:
neoteny usually is that juvenile-like traits are being selected for/ passed down) and insular dwarfism happens in isolated groups.

Both seem to be gradual mutations/evolution. both natural and artificial selection pass down the traits of juvenile appearance and smaller size. but in some cases retention of juvenile appearance can be sudden..?

In both, it shouldn't really affect the mane growth, since these animals sexually mature, manes are sexual characteristic, example:
insular dwarfish= pygmy elephants have tusks; and neoteny= human have beards and body-hair (scarce beards/bodyhair is seen in asians, but many do have full long beards).
Mane size and fullness is dependent on its own genes and on hormones mostly.

Lets imagine its a barbary-mane pygmy/neotenous lion? xD

~~~~~

On how to obtains these small lions:
If it's not considered a random mutation maybe this could be the scenarios:
- Your lion bred with a mystery pygmy/neotenous lion and got an offspring. like with the hybrids(Leopons).
- A Rapid evolution like the Primals are (they are rapid-devolution?). Mutie on Demand?
- *You encounter a pygmy/neotenous lioness in explore and claim like the NCLs. Could be during an event only, like the groupies? Or a Raffle lioness. (in this case it will be a special "mutie" only obtained like these?)

*Mutations in these game are not always true mutations, hybrids and ancestrals(evolving back) are called mutations here. Not every "mutation" needs to be super realistic.

~~~~~

fTfwtKs.png
Maybe could be the ofspring of that? 😂 (t'is a joke)

~~~~~~~

Let’s make Lioden Cute! (some balance is needed, its too gory and gruesome)

(It would be awesome it could be bought at some time like a Mutie on Demand item)



This suggestion has 1423 supports and 220 NO supports.



Hrt Icon 4 players like this post! Like?

Edited on 20/07/18 @ 13:01:19 by Zizi 🥀 (#12402)

Paz (#193316)

King of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-04-21 11:31:55
i really want this to be a thing, they look much cuter than the 'normal' dwarves, and i think it would start a much needed buzz in the mutie breeding market since primals arent as interesting anymore besides felis.



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?

Crowley (#114224)

UwU
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-04-21 22:16:19
If they have curly tails then implement that. They aren’t meant to be a cuter dwarf or comparable to them. And if they have a piebald pattern I feel like it’s too OP as double mutations are something that could make or break the game, instead on focusing on them being cute maybe make them have a more realistic look in terms of the floppy ears, squished in faces, large foreheads ect. They may be better as a lethal mutation if you go with that approach though.


Such as using examples of how it effects humans to show it in animals, you are probably demonstrating the stages 2-3, which show the most dramatic movement.

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNeoteny_in_humans&psig=AOvVaw298Mfu2FNEIp7hiRf9Znq_&ust=1619154668396000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCKCg2KuLkfACFQAAAAAdAAAAABAK



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Lonie (#191250)

Untitled
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2021-11-29 03:27:44
I love them supported!



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

DawnStar (#166818)

Total Chad
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-02-10 00:30:19
I say no to mutie on demand. I also want it to be passable though so maybe we can have something like what they did with ferus...



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?

Mnada (#208144)

Amiable
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-02-10 09:49:00
Ive read up to page 5 of this thread and I have to say no support for several reasons already stated.
Before I state them, I will say i have not read pages 6 and onward, and I refuse to.

First of all, this is a waste of time to make art-wise, and is nowhere near a mutation, just a genetic thing that stunts the growth of a animal. As stated by others, dwarves just have stunted growth and cannot grow taller than 4'11. This is also barely any type of height difference and it would be better off as a custom decor, or just some regular poses that change the lions [of course, heights do not change in that scenario].
I will not explain further, as i have no need to.

Secondly, your attitude towards people politely explaining why this isn't, and can't be a mutation is quite horrific.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?


Edited on 10/02/22 @ 09:49:39 by Furiku (#208144)

Ricky [Git gud lol] (#177615)

Notable Lion
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-02-10 09:51:34
As said above, no support due to the attitude shown and snarky comments towards those who explained why something cannot happen, nor be accepted by the devs in the first place.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Harley {Interstellar
Daedal} (#65794)

Angelic
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-03-01 23:37:43
Support.
Going off the argument that smallness in domestic only happens from humans breeding them, then by that argument the planned brachy mutation shouldnt be created, animals are only brachy because of people breeding them that way, I have never see or heard of a brachy wild animal, except in the case of Kenny the tiger who was from a brother/sister pairing, because of humans breeding them for the white color, to make a profit..
There are variations of primal so why not variations of dwarfism? having a small chance of it passing from a dwarf would be cool.
Every mutation is just here because it looks cool (primal/pie/patches/leopon/tigon/etc) or cute (dwarfism/bob tail/folded ears/etc).. so this would just be another 'cute' mutation, i dont get the harm in that.
Irl primals would not be able to happen, maybe some genes popping up but its not like a lioness is gonna give birth to a lion that has the exact same genetics as it ancestors in real life, so the argument that it would be realistic doesn't make sense oml . If the game was 100% realistic there wouldn't be any purple, pink, blue, green etc lions, dwarves would be able to naturally pass their mutation, any breeding items wouldn't work .. etc



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?


Edited on 01/03/22 @ 23:42:27 by Harley{G4 interstellar ferus} (#65794)

[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-25 22:43:31
Honestly just supporting it because

1. Why not? Literally why not? We need some more ideas for pleasing mutations. Scrungly lions, let's go. I'd absolutely have a scrunched lion in my pride. I already have wumbo-sized primals.
2. Every argument of it not being realistic went out the window the literal moment that primals were added.

On the topic of primals, ferus were added as part of a storyline where the ancestors blessed a lion with the ability to protect its pride from poachers.
Why not have something like this tied to the Firelords or the Celestial Kingdom pride?
Just get creative and let's stop leaning on realism as a crutch. You do *not* have to partake in something if it isn't your flavor. Keep your realism.



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?

🥝 Kiwi | Lifelong
Hiatus 🥝 (#251788)

Sapphic
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-25 22:45:38
100% support.

As shown, you've made some really great models for in-game sketches and I think it could be quickly implemented with your lineart! You've certainly got the skill and the lineart, so why not have the devs copy some codes and just replace XYZ with ABC?

I don't entirely see the point in the mutation argument... Nothing in this game is 100% realistic. I mean really? Green lions? Blue lions? Primals? Hell the breeding items don't make sense. Imagine using a marking app. Irl on a lion with a popup menu and everything. If You want realistic, this game isn't for you hun.

Even if that s a big issue, there could always be a feature to make it into an Oasis item!! Similar to cub stages, you get "Adult Stages"!! Cub stages was quickly implemented, and so I don't see why that would be such an issue



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?


Edited on 25/08/22 @ 22:49:25 by 🥝 Kiwi - She/Her 🥝 (#251788)

[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-25 23:01:32
The models are cleverly cobbled together from Lioden assets. Pieces of dwarves, primals, leopons and so forth. It pretty accurately conveys the idea mentioned.

I think insular dwarfism could easily work. Stating that these creatures came from another plane, or that they're found on some of the islands the art introduces, could be an easy way to go about it.

A lot of people early in the comments were trying to say this would happen from abuse, and that's not only narrow minded, but such an impressive leap that you should consider trying out for the Olympics!

There is proven evidence that species of all kinds confined to islands may develop smaller due to lack of resources for larger species' sustainability, and this even includes humans. I encourage people to read up on the "Flores Pygmies" - living peoples on an island in Indonesia who stand at 1.45m tall. Details on the subject from Princeton here.

Another article on the insular dwarfism in canids in Java (Indonesia) mentions the following:
• Xenocyon evolved considerable dwarfism, down to 40% of the ancestral size, due to filtered insular conditions of Java
• This ecological displacement is best explained by absence of small canids and mustelids under insular conditions

You can read more here: By Alexandra A.E. van der Geer, George A. Lyras, and Rebekka Volmer

Anyways, insular dwarfism absolutely occurs in the wild. The dwarfism we see in Lioden is actually closer to dwarfism as bred into modern day cats and dogs purposefully, so if we really, REALLY wanna split hairs? That's the one that's inhumane.

Real life cat bred for dwarfism traits:
9dd66e35d1290527554a3f278ca91ea6.png



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?


Edited on 25/08/22 @ 23:04:20 by [△] Nadir (#108458)

Ricky [Git gud lol] (#177615)

Notable Lion
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-26 01:10:28
I agree with these points, the only issue i have with supporting this idea is the audacity the host has with their attitude when answering people. I get it, people disagree with your idea, no need to be so hissy about it though; it looses you votes.

I'd love to have a bigger/smaller dwarf size, but i wouldn't want it knowing how rude the creator of the idea was personally . It would be something that makes me completely oppose the idea; being kind to the people who comment is something you should consider before making a poll on a species; not everyone will agree! You gotta accept that; otherwise don't bother yourself with making these polls.

The art is adorable [i would prefer a whole new art piece, i would hate the pon poses being used for something that doesn't look like a pon]; but also, if dwarves can pass on insular dwarves, why can't they pass on regular? Would it be a small chance using a lion scrot that you get an insular dwarf instead of a regular one?

Again, the only issue i have with supporting this is how hissy the creator is; so i remain with a no support unfortunately.



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?

Ricky [Git gud lol] (#177615)

Notable Lion
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-26 01:16:45
This is a prime example. They make it unnecessarily personal and just outright disrespect this person when they said nothing wrong; they just said it wouldn't be an actual mutation.
Capture

This type of behaviour is just unacceptable imo and i would never support anyone who acted like this because they're simply butt-hurt that someone doesn't like their suggestion and it gets worse.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-26 12:16:13
Rufus (#177615) :: Normally, this is the part where I'd say 'have someone else post the suggestion up, re-word it better and provide real life references' because I do 100% agree, but Lioden won't let us do duplicate suggestions. Though personally when I come to suggestions, I don't much care about whatever weird arguments and petty drama happen in the comments. I'm looking at how it could genuinely work in-game. People are gunna be people, they're gunna argue. Two years is a long time ago, and frankly, we have no idea what personal growth the poster has undergone and shouldn't judge until we see the behaviour again.

I do also find the amount of people taking this suggestion personally a little silly. Dwarfism is usually caused by a genetic mutation but one can also have the gene(s) responsible for it. At 4'10 or below, one is considered a 'dwarf'. The average height of the genetic condition dwarfism in humans is 4'0 but it ranges from 2'8 to 4'8. From Little People of America Online: https://www.lpaonline.org/faq-

I would personally want the two kinds of dwarfism to be completely separate, as they are two kinds of separate dwarfism. I'd love for Insular Dwarfism to be something that's introduced via an event item or by a very small chance naturally, and can be passed with Lion Scrotums. I wouldn't want Insular Dwarfism to pass Dwarfism or vice versa. Because it'd interfere with current Dwarf breeding, honestly.

There's a number of people on this site I don't get along with or don't like how they behave. But ultimately my choices on suggestions come down to the idea and if I think it would be enjoyable to have, versus the submitter's behaviour. Some people I don't care for have come up with very good suggestions, and because we're not allowed to post duplicate suggestions, I don't think we should lose out on otherwise cool ideas just because the OP behaved poorly.



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?

Ricky [Git gud lol] (#177615)

Notable Lion
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-26 12:34:29
Mhm. Agreed with all of those points. I'd love the idea myself, but also wouldn't want it in the game even if they were separate mutations. I'm unsure why, I just don't think the community would like it all that much and would get confused as to why there was a secondary dwarf mut.

The in-game dwarf is considered a mut because the limbs are very short (which is the common human dwarf that most people know dwarves by irl), so having a normal-proportioned lion that is just short can be portrayed using the adol pose as well if someone really wanted to invent their own mut



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

[△] Nadir (#108458)

Prophet
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2022-08-26 16:08:08
Well that's just the thing. Primals aren't mutations.

They're a result of divergent evolution. They are specifically based off of smilodons and similar cats within the Machairodontinae sub-family. They're not directly related to lions at all. They're in the family Felidae.

"The Felidae are in the carnivore suborder Feliformia. They diverged from a common ancestor with the Viverridae, Hyaenidae, Herpestidae, and Eupleridae 40 (33–46) million years ago (MYA). The felids diverged 15.2 (12.3–18.1) MYA into two major (subfamily) lineages, Pantherinae and Felinae." Source

If this is the metric we're using to decide what should or shouldn't be added, then primal variations shouldn't have been added. I don't say this to be difficult. I say it because the reasoning doesn't really hold up. Insular Dwarfism is actually more closely comparible to primals, not Standard Dwarves, which from their appearance more closely resemble the result of selective breeding in their current appearance (stumpy limbs and standard-sized bodies).

Xylax posted the Primordial Dwarves sketches here: https://xylax.tumblr.com/post/167731966419
f6e18f51de2e0e0ff8c01ef4fce1568f.png

I think these are different enough to be considered.

BTW, the lion inspiration:
756658e99d8317f653edef2e213cd551.png

The "Primordial Dwarves" are tiny, scrunched up, hunch-backed and maneless. Insular Dwarves more closely resemble much smaller lions that have manes - though less - and much more wiry frames, versus the dense muscle of standard lions. They're more like cats that have evolved for tropical environments.

EDIT: Here's an article on examples of insular dwarfism, and one of those is the Bali Tiger, the smallest tigers to exist: https://discover.hubpages.com/education/Examples-of-Insular-Dwarfism



Hrt Icon 1 player likes this post! Like?


Edited on 26/08/22 @ 16:12:30 by [△] Nadir (#108458)







Memory Used: 665.93 KB - Queries: 0 - Query Time: 0.00000 - Total Time: 0.00544s