Posted by "Neotenous"/"insular dwarfism"

πŸ₯€ (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-07 17:13:17
There are so many ugly and some very disturbing suggestions here... so I thought of why not a cute pleasing to the eyes "mutation"!
~~~

petite_lionboy_by_bekiss-dcgl92n.png
petite_lionbae2_by_bekiss-dcgozgl.png
petite_lioness_by_bekiss-dcgoqiu.png
petite_lionessby_by_bekiss-dcgp1wc.png
(scroll downer for other mock-up sketches)

*changed name to β€œneotenous” (used to be called "petite")
other name: "insular dwarfism"



It’s a smaller lion (and cuter)
-Maybe the size of a leopard or cheetah?
lion_cheetah_size_by_bekiss-dcgkxwc.png
-It would be healthy and breed-able. Can be Kinged.
-Inheritable? Can be passed down by both mother and father. ?
-It will be for all age stages. Doesn't need to have different artwork for newborn and young cub, 'cause those are already small (that artwork could be resized smaller, if needed).

The effect it could have in game-play could be:
- That it has less chance when catching big preys (on its one it cannot), but more likely to catch small preys.
- It is harder to breed, more chance to fail breeding, and if bred with Primal there's a 50 chance of cub mortality even with nesting (Primals are huge). *But if this coding is too much trouble then just make them not able to breed with Primals and 25-50% chance of failing breeding for "small" male studs with any non-"small", (females already have a fertility %).
- Shorter gestation periods and sexually mature faster. (took that from wikipedia.) *could be hard to code, so ignore it?
- Stat penalty.

~~~~

mutation_tag2_by_bekiss-dcgl0r7.png

Neoteny: "Some common neotenous physical traits in domesticated animals (mainly dogs, pigs, ferrets, cats, and even foxes) include: floppy ears, changes in reproductive cycle, curly tails, piebald coloration, fewer or shortened vertebra, large eyes, rounded forehead, large ears, and shortened muzzle."(from wikipedia) Neoteny is very common in humans!

This suggestion only refers to mammalian neoteny, and neoteny does not affect every physical traits in all cases:
neoteny = the retention of some juvenile characteristics in adulthood

So in theory, these lions can have normal full manes.

The neotenous lion doesn't need to have shorter gestations and mature sexually faster.

~~~~
Insular dwarfism
the "pygmy elephant" is a good example click and info: click

In looks It's not identical to the "dwarfism" mutation here, because the body is proportionate, limbs will be average or slightly shorter but not really noticeable. (Made edit pics to show that. above.)
This type can be healthy and have a life span similar to their bigger relatives (both the pygmy elephants and asian-african elephants can live up to 70 years, and the pygmy sexually matures faster:10yrs. vs14yrs)


*Got another idea: what if you can get this mutation when breeding with dwarfs?
(edit: Not, 'cause insular dwarfism is completely different from that type of dwarfism that actually deforms the body proportions. and insular dwarfism is evolution/species adapting to an environment.)
petite_lionboy_with_dwarf_by_bekiss-dcgla5l.png

Lioden includes Madagascar? (click) so pygmy lions can be a thing here...?

~~~~

I'm not suggesting amphibian's paedomorphosis (or for this "mutation" to be called Paedomorphosis.) Axolotl are pedomorphic species, but they are not described with the word neoteny (click)

Info! :D (from encyclopedia britannica)
Paedomorphosis: "retention by an organism of juvenile or even larval traits into later life. There are two aspects of paedomorphosis: acceleration of sexual maturation relative to the rest of development (progenesis) and retardation of bodily development with respect to the onset of reproductive activity (neoteny).

Classic examples include certain amphibian species in which development is arrested so that the larval form and aquatic habit persist as the organism attains sexual maturity and becomes capable of reproduction. In some species only a few morphological features are retarded, but the number of features retarded may differ from species to species. Adult humans, for example, display various neotenic body features that other adult primates do not.
In other species all morphological development is retarded; the organism is juvenilized but sexually mature. Such shifts of reproductive capability would appear to have adaptive significance to organisms that exhibit it. In terms of evolutionary theory, the process of paedomorphosis suggests that larval stages and developmental phases of existing organisms may give rise, under certain circumstances, to wholly new organisms."

Source: (click)

~~~~~

It seems, the difference between neoteny and insular dwarfism, (of mammals), is that:
neoteny usually is that juvenile-like traits are being selected for/ passed down) and insular dwarfism happens in isolated groups.

Both seem to be gradual mutations/evolution. both natural and artificial selection pass down the traits of juvenile appearance and smaller size. but in some cases retention of juvenile appearance can be sudden..?

In both, it shouldn't really affect the mane growth, since these animals sexually mature, manes are sexual characteristic, example:
insular dwarfish= pygmy elephants have tusks; and neoteny= human have beards and body-hair (scarce beards/bodyhair is seen in asians, but many do have full long beards).
Mane size and fullness is dependent on its own genes and on hormones mostly.

Lets imagine its a barbary-mane pygmy/neotenous lion? xD

~~~~~

On how to obtains these small lions:
If it's not considered a random mutation maybe this could be the scenarios:
- Your lion bred with a mystery pygmy/neotenous lion and got an offspring. like with the hybrids(Leopons).
- A Rapid evolution like the Primals are (they are rapid-devolution?). Mutie on Demand?
- *You encounter a pygmy/neotenous lioness in explore and claim like the NCLs. Could be during an event only, like the groupies? Or a Raffle lioness. (in this case it will be a special "mutie" only obtained like these?)

*Mutations in these game are not always true mutations, hybrids and ancestrals(evolving back) are called mutations here. Not every "mutation" needs to be super realistic.

~~~~~

fTfwtKs.png
Maybe could be the ofspring of that? πŸ˜‚ (t'is a joke)

~~~~~~~

Let’s make Lioden Cute! (some balance is needed, its too gory and gruesome)

(It would be awesome it could be bought at some time like a Mutie on Demand item)



This suggestion has 1433 supports and 221 NO supports.



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Edited on 20/07/18 @ 13:01:19 by Zizi πŸ₯€ (#12402)

Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:13:40
That argument makes no sense, mutations and markings are based off of things, yeah so we have markings based off of domestic animals but not mutations? A lot of mutations show up really often in domestic animals but... like piebald, you ain't gonna see a big cat with piebald, it's common in horses mostly, and cats can have piebald but you ain't gonna see it on a wild bred cat.



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Karmo (#98909)

Divine
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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:18:56
A leopon wouldn't be able to, but achromia and dwarf can. Due to them being able to move, eat, and hunt, the pride will take care of them.
A pride has taken care of a paralyzed cub (technically adol but he was stuck at cub size) for as long as they could until the cub just couldn't move anymore and follow the pride (the pride was constantly moving). His mother stayed with him for a while until the pride got far away and she left to join them. So unless the member is unable to stay alive, they will accept their pride members no matter what. A cub with a broken hind leg? They will care for it as long as they could until the cub gets better, grows old, or dies of infection.
Since a Neoteny lion is capable of hunting and eating, they wouldn't care as much for it as they would an actual injured member, especially during meal time where everyone fights for food.



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:22:33
And piebaldism has been found in wild animals, it is capable of happening in the wild. Color mutations are extremely common in wild animals too.
Absurdism is one, where the marks are increased.
There's also times where there's almost no markings, like a cheetah with barely any spotting.
Melanism happens in jaguars and leopards, and albinism happens in wild animals as well.



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:24:39
Again, markings have no in-game effect other than making lions look different from one another. Mutations that causes bigger changes usually have effects to go with it, like male leopons being unable to breed.



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Meep (sunset felis) (#66275)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:28:28
Animals with achromia almost inevitably die in the wild because they have horrid camouflage, and a dwarf wouldn't be able to keep up, similarly to how a neotenous probably wouldn't because they aren't robust enough to keep up. An eyeless lion would die for similar reasons, unable to hunt or defend itself from competing species. Even if the pride cares for another member, they can only do so much. These lions would be burdens to the pride that would be more likely to be injured during hunts and suffer from afflictions related to their deformities. Achromia and dwarfism are often co-morbid with other afflictions that would prove fatal for a wild animal, hence why they rarely survive into old age or even past childhood. And like you just said yourself, the pride will eventually abandon members who can't keep up, even if they don't necessarily want to. But this is lioden, our lions are sapient and colorful, so things like that can be ignored because the game isn't realistic.



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Meep (sunset felis) (#66275)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:32:10
If how the mutation appears is such a big deal to you, then the mutation can be introduced through neotenous studs as a tier during an event, or as a mutation applicator like primal, piebald, and og fur.



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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:35:10
A dwarf lion in a pride would have a much harder time hunting then a normal lion, be slower and not as strong. And as meep said most achromia animals wouldn't survive and yes piebald can be seen in wild animals but not big cats. Deaf, blind, eyeless, clawless, all dead quickly in the wild. Dwarf and other things that would cause defects wouldn't last long either in most cases.

It would be cool as a stud or MOD (personally prefer the stud chance, make it a bit more rare) cause i think it makes sense as random/passable but either is still fine with me.



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 22:40:56 by Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:41:08
You'd be surprised how strong a dwarf cat can be. They're only smaller, but they're still strong and very agile and can easily catch up. Achromia is harder to stay alive, yes, but lions have been known to make strategies to catch prey, like causing prey to head in the direction of another lion. Lions on their own usually have a harder chance at survival, even without mutations. A lioness on her own may not be able to catch any prey for days, even weeks.

And again, the point of the suggestion was to make the lion cute, not to make it a real Neoteny animal. A lion can be made easily cute with decor and poses and the such. Cute isn't a mutation, and if it was trying to be Neoteny then it will need to be adjusted to be close to actual Neoteny, including the effects a Neoteny lion would have, not just small prey catching and have it harder to breed (it would only make sense for Neoteny males to have trouble breeding due their size, not females however).



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 22:43:02
@Phantom
I like the idea of a stud for this, MOD not really just because of it being abused like the Primals.
Like I've said before, there could be a whole storyline for Insular lions (and I guess Neoteny lions that escaped their owners so something similar) and a stud would be perfect for that.

[EDIT]
If Insular lions were added (or Neoteny as well), which event would they be added too? I would think maybe March due to poachers capturing and transferring animals for gain?



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 22:46:30 by Karmo (#98909)

πŸ₯€ (#12402)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 23:03:55
Karmo, You don't know what was going on in my head when I made this suggestion >_> yeah the idea was not complete but I'm a simple person, I didn't thought I would need to write an essay on... theoretical subspecies of lions....
cuteness is not unrealistic, many small to medium size felines exist and they are very cute because of their smallness, fluffiness, and big eyes.. The mock ups I made, to show what I meant since the beginning, are completely realistic. Look at the lynx and tell me it doesn't look like a juvenile-like, small-size and super cute Smilodon xD



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 23:20:01 by Zizi πŸ₯€ (#12402)

Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 23:08:55
They're trying to suggest a mutation that fits for that though, seems like a weird reason to discredit it. March would possibly work but I'll have to think on that...
And yeah dwarfism in animals can be stronger and more agile... if they survive past a certain point... but can also have other problems that in the wild could make it weaker. And if the pride or pack (wolves with Melanism and similar looks have been known to be chased from packs.) Sees a member as a liability and not worth the trouble or concern, they will chase it.
My point to saying that is to point out that alot of the mutations in the game, it's not that it couldn't happen, it just wouldn't last in the wild. This is no different then any mutation



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 23:14:53 by Phantom StarsX (#92256)

GayenaKing [Leonid
Project] (#74562)

Interstellar
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Posted on
2018-07-12 23:19:59
Maybe if it's changed to be more like actual neoteny instead of 'small cutesy lion' then I'll reconsider, but as is those mock ups are NOT realistic and why has been pointed out before. The current mock ups are just different poses mashed together, or the adol leopon pose, with a different head and big eyes. Neoteny isn't just 'smaller with big eyes' and it seems you're just trying to defend and justify any reason possible for smaller and cuter lions, without any proper reasoning or explanation.



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MacabreRoses (#42251)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 23:32:28
.



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Edited on 13/07/18 @ 11:26:13 by MacabreRoses [Lilac 2k] (#42251)

πŸ₯€ (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-13 00:01:39
ehhhh Havent I explained enough? even given you nerds(I'm one too, don't get offended) the science and theories of it?

it wasn'tt poses mashed together T-T a lot of thinking and editing went there. I wasn't going to draw from scratch >_> my style won't match lioden and would take forever... I chose leopon's body for the adols because those fictional leopons are small and cute :3
------

what Xylax plans is some lethal mutation of deformed tiny lion. It was something someone suggested...? a degenerative genetic error, in which the fetus doesn't grow and develop like it should have, its doesn't matures/grows.... "primordial dwarfism", google it, you would see many tiny humans child-size... nothing like the "pygmy races" of humans.

what I suggest is a real pygmy like what exists in elephants, hippos, ect. pygmy hippos are so darn cute! click! they surely look neotenous!



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Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)

Resurgent
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Posted on
2018-07-13 07:38:43
Even though my previous reply had no answer, I'll go ahead and share my thoughts on this suggestion as it is right now. First of all, most mutations are "ugly" and "disturbing" because every time something is altered during the gestation process or at DNA-level that's what it means, usually. It's more likely for such mutations to affect the organism on a fatal level than result on relatively harmless, "cool" things. Second, there are plenty of non-lethal mutations that are pleasing to the eye, such as regular dwarfism, piebald, patches, even leopons - even though they are really a hybrid and not a mutation, that's how they're classified in the game - if you're not into the different mane adult mutations, overgrown claws or teeth. What you're proposing here, with the mishmashed copy-paste of linearts, seems more fitting for a decor than anything else, with the "shojo" vibe it has.

Here you can see the sketches Xylax did for the upcoming primordial variant of dwarfism: tumblr_ozrp2yfr281rk56gyo1_500.jpg

As you can see, that is a much more realistic approach to what you're proposing, with the cub stages being "cute" and the adult stage being proportioned, even showing some spine difformation. People like you would be able to use one of the eyes to show the mutated lion on the "cute" stage, if you wish so much for cute things, without affecting the whole aescetic lioden has going on, just like you can do with other decors like shy groupie expression, among others.



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