Posted by "Neotenous"/"insular dwarfism"

🥀 (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-07 17:13:17
There are so many ugly and some very disturbing suggestions here... so I thought of why not a cute pleasing to the eyes "mutation"!
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petite_lionboy_by_bekiss-dcgl92n.png
petite_lionbae2_by_bekiss-dcgozgl.png
petite_lioness_by_bekiss-dcgoqiu.png
petite_lionessby_by_bekiss-dcgp1wc.png
(scroll downer for other mock-up sketches)

*changed name to “neotenous” (used to be called "petite")
other name: "insular dwarfism"



It’s a smaller lion (and cuter)
-Maybe the size of a leopard or cheetah?
lion_cheetah_size_by_bekiss-dcgkxwc.png
-It would be healthy and breed-able. Can be Kinged.
-Inheritable? Can be passed down by both mother and father. ?
-It will be for all age stages. Doesn't need to have different artwork for newborn and young cub, 'cause those are already small (that artwork could be resized smaller, if needed).

The effect it could have in game-play could be:
- That it has less chance when catching big preys (on its one it cannot), but more likely to catch small preys.
- It is harder to breed, more chance to fail breeding, and if bred with Primal there's a 50 chance of cub mortality even with nesting (Primals are huge). *But if this coding is too much trouble then just make them not able to breed with Primals and 25-50% chance of failing breeding for "small" male studs with any non-"small", (females already have a fertility %).
- Shorter gestation periods and sexually mature faster. (took that from wikipedia.) *could be hard to code, so ignore it?
- Stat penalty.

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mutation_tag2_by_bekiss-dcgl0r7.png

Neoteny: "Some common neotenous physical traits in domesticated animals (mainly dogs, pigs, ferrets, cats, and even foxes) include: floppy ears, changes in reproductive cycle, curly tails, piebald coloration, fewer or shortened vertebra, large eyes, rounded forehead, large ears, and shortened muzzle."(from wikipedia) Neoteny is very common in humans!

This suggestion only refers to mammalian neoteny, and neoteny does not affect every physical traits in all cases:
neoteny = the retention of some juvenile characteristics in adulthood

So in theory, these lions can have normal full manes.

The neotenous lion doesn't need to have shorter gestations and mature sexually faster.

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Insular dwarfism
the "pygmy elephant" is a good example click and info: click

In looks It's not identical to the "dwarfism" mutation here, because the body is proportionate, limbs will be average or slightly shorter but not really noticeable. (Made edit pics to show that. above.)
This type can be healthy and have a life span similar to their bigger relatives (both the pygmy elephants and asian-african elephants can live up to 70 years, and the pygmy sexually matures faster:10yrs. vs14yrs)


*Got another idea: what if you can get this mutation when breeding with dwarfs?
(edit: Not, 'cause insular dwarfism is completely different from that type of dwarfism that actually deforms the body proportions. and insular dwarfism is evolution/species adapting to an environment.)
petite_lionboy_with_dwarf_by_bekiss-dcgla5l.png

Lioden includes Madagascar? (click) so pygmy lions can be a thing here...?

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I'm not suggesting amphibian's paedomorphosis (or for this "mutation" to be called Paedomorphosis.) Axolotl are pedomorphic species, but they are not described with the word neoteny (click)

Info! :D (from encyclopedia britannica)
Paedomorphosis: "retention by an organism of juvenile or even larval traits into later life. There are two aspects of paedomorphosis: acceleration of sexual maturation relative to the rest of development (progenesis) and retardation of bodily development with respect to the onset of reproductive activity (neoteny).

Classic examples include certain amphibian species in which development is arrested so that the larval form and aquatic habit persist as the organism attains sexual maturity and becomes capable of reproduction. In some species only a few morphological features are retarded, but the number of features retarded may differ from species to species. Adult humans, for example, display various neotenic body features that other adult primates do not.
In other species all morphological development is retarded; the organism is juvenilized but sexually mature. Such shifts of reproductive capability would appear to have adaptive significance to organisms that exhibit it. In terms of evolutionary theory, the process of paedomorphosis suggests that larval stages and developmental phases of existing organisms may give rise, under certain circumstances, to wholly new organisms."

Source: (click)

~~~~~

It seems, the difference between neoteny and insular dwarfism, (of mammals), is that:
neoteny usually is that juvenile-like traits are being selected for/ passed down) and insular dwarfism happens in isolated groups.

Both seem to be gradual mutations/evolution. both natural and artificial selection pass down the traits of juvenile appearance and smaller size. but in some cases retention of juvenile appearance can be sudden..?

In both, it shouldn't really affect the mane growth, since these animals sexually mature, manes are sexual characteristic, example:
insular dwarfish= pygmy elephants have tusks; and neoteny= human have beards and body-hair (scarce beards/bodyhair is seen in asians, but many do have full long beards).
Mane size and fullness is dependent on its own genes and on hormones mostly.

Lets imagine its a barbary-mane pygmy/neotenous lion? xD

~~~~~

On how to obtains these small lions:
If it's not considered a random mutation maybe this could be the scenarios:
- Your lion bred with a mystery pygmy/neotenous lion and got an offspring. like with the hybrids(Leopons).
- A Rapid evolution like the Primals are (they are rapid-devolution?). Mutie on Demand?
- *You encounter a pygmy/neotenous lioness in explore and claim like the NCLs. Could be during an event only, like the groupies? Or a Raffle lioness. (in this case it will be a special "mutie" only obtained like these?)

*Mutations in these game are not always true mutations, hybrids and ancestrals(evolving back) are called mutations here. Not every "mutation" needs to be super realistic.

~~~~~

fTfwtKs.png
Maybe could be the ofspring of that? 😂 (t'is a joke)

~~~~~~~

Let’s make Lioden Cute! (some balance is needed, its too gory and gruesome)

(It would be awesome it could be bought at some time like a Mutie on Demand item)



This suggestion has 1428 supports and 221 NO supports.



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Edited on 20/07/18 @ 13:01:19 by Zizi 🥀 (#12402)

Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:01:31
Dwarf lions on the game are healthy and I consider leopons cute. what's the problem with calling mutation cute, alot of em kinda are, but in a different sense to each other. I don't see the issue with this.



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ADDAKAX (#14463)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:02:10
You realize that the point of this 'mutation' seems to be the relative cuteness of it.

This mutation is purely suggested because someone wants a lion that looks closer to a cat with a mane rather than an actual lion. It is not a mutation that has happened in lions OR anywhere in the panthera genus. The idea of mutations is to implement something that occurs in real life or has been recorded to happen in real life and implement it in the game.

Deafness, clawlessness, toothlessness, blindness, eyelessness, tailessness, polycaudalness, bobbed tails,overgrown claws, teeth, and fur and the lethal mutations the game has have happened in real life to more than just the panthera genus in general for reasons I have already explained.

(Partial) Melanism, albinism, and dwarfism have happened in real life in the panthera genus in general, if not in lions specifically.

Leopons and tigons have happened in real life, and in the case of leopons it is perfectly possible without human aid.

The primal mutations are based on creatures that have existed long ago - creatures in the panthera genus or closely related to it.

Show me an example of neoteny in the panthera genus.



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:05:27
@Lamm
I actually really hate the primal variations and wish we only had the og, especially since so many people crown Smilus/Felis kings nowadays it's so hard to find a normal stud.
Like I said, I'm down for a dwarf variation, but not for it to be "cute". An actual mutation is fine.
I didn't know that there's gonna be a new primal ughh



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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:06:27
What's the problem with why someone suggested something, if they think it's cute that's fine but what's the problem with it as a mutation? And I'm legitimately curious, has primordial dwarfism even been recorded in big cats, or regular dwarfism?



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Spectre [CLEAN
Pastel Festive] (#8762)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:11:11
The artist said a while back he doesn't mind adding mutations with a fantasy element to them either. There was supposed to be a dorsal fur mutation and that was kinda out there. If I recall correctly nothing like that happens in the Panthera genus?

It's pretty clear the developers are ok with adding some fantasy touches here and there and for things to be a little out there, look at the bases we've gotten so far. This just seems kinda innocuous tbh when compared to some other aspects of the site that aren't based in realism.

Neoteny may not occur in the Panthera genus but some other mutations like progeria and ichthyosis don't either.

Idk the problem being that it's supposed to be "cute" seems like a weird point? I mean cute in itself is subjective. There are people that find dwarfism or leopons cute. What's wrong with wanting to suggest a mutation you think is cute?



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 16:15:21 by Lamm [Çß] (#8762)

Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:22:54
But this isn't a "fantasy" touch, it's a small lion. This suggestion wasn't supposed to be fantasy-like, it was to add a cute mutation to the game, which there was no need too since mutations aren't supposed to be cute. You may find them cute, but their whole purpose wasn't meant to be cute.
Ichthyosis happens in cats though. Mutations on here can happen to any animal if it's capable, and though lions or the Panthera genus haven't had it occur, it is still possible for it to happen, like Progeria.
It may not be exact as human Progeria, but it has happened where an animal looks and basically is older than it should be and dies at a very young age.



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ADDAKAX (#14463)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:22:56
The problem is that they're suggesting a mutation simply because they want their lion to look cute instead of like an actual lion. It is not a mutation based on facts or having happened anywhere near the panthera genus.

Primordial dwarfism stems from the idea that lions long ago, those the primal variations are based of, could have endured dwarfism. As for dwarfism in lions, it has happened, it is where the original dwarf mutation was inspired from.




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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:26:00
The problem could be fixed if it was made to be an actual mutation, like an actual Insular Dwarf lion.
That is a pretty good idea, and it is different from actual dwarfism due to Insular happening from bigger animals moving to a much smaller place (and smaller animals moving to a bigger place), like an island.



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Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:26:24
... primordial dwarfism is basicbasically a pygmy cub lion. Idk I don't see a problem with the suggestion, I kinda like the insular dwarfism name idea though (which is closer to what you just said felidross)



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 16:29:00 by Phantom StarsX (#92256)

Meep (sunset felis) (#66275)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:29:29
Support.There's plenty of mutations already in the game that don't naturally appear in lions or in the panthera genus. Wanting a neotony mutation because it's cute is a cool idea and by no means bad, it's no different than someone wanting a pink or blue lion because it looks cool (which we already have). The argument for rigid realism in lioden left the table long ago and I'm frankly surprised by the amount of no supports.



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Spectre [CLEAN
Pastel Festive] (#8762)


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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:31:20
Primals are supposed to be a fantasy touch though... they're a made up mutation for the sake of being interesting. How are they real? Based on real extinct animals sure but they're not those actual animals. They're made up and designed to reflect those extinct animals.

"Primals have a huge interest and potential of endless development really, because they’re made up, there’s no medical limits that I cannot cross compared to realistic mutations like cyclopia.

Primals deform lion’s body in very fantasy, “cool” way and enhances them into “better” lions. I think that’s why in a way they’re so popular and they’re fun to draw, yeah. They also sport new poses and body designs and give a feeling of a fresh look for your kings or heirs which isn’t a thing for males yet since there’s no poses :o That’s why they’re so fun for everyone, including me."

From Xy's own blog here: https://xylax.tumblr.com/post/175637146994

EDIT for clarification: This is on the "primals are possible" note because I'm legitimately confused on that part.



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Edited on 12/07/18 @ 16:37:09 by Lamm [Çß] (#8762)

Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:31:28
The suggestion wants a cute lion, not an actual mutation, that's the problem. Insular dwarfism would have the lion adapt to the smaller surrounding, so it wouldn't look exactly like a lion or a dwarf lion, it would almost look like a subspecies of lion. Like with elephants that had insular dwarfism, their body changed to match the environment, not having great proportions of the body however, as the head would be larger and they would almost have no neck, and the legs would be skinnier compared to the body.



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:34:14
@Lamm

Primals as a mutation is actually possible in real life but would need to happen for a reason. It is possible to "devolve" as a species, and we got our Primals during a time of no food, which could cause lions to become bigger and stronger to fight other lions and much much larger prey. Although it wouldn't happen with the snap of our fingers like it does in Lioden, it can very much happen in real life.



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Spectre [CLEAN
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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:36:32
Ah I can see what you're saying now, thanks for clarifying.



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-12 16:37:51
No problem. I don't mean to be rude in any ways, sorry if I come off as that. I just think that this suggestion has potential, rather than just being a "cute" mutation.



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