Posted by Unwanted overflow cubs and what to do with them
WitchWolf (#5939)

Deathlord of the Jungle
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Posted on
2013-05-29 06:03:16
Well, we're all seeing what's been going on lately - The game is way overflooded with excess cubs that are getting cheaper by teh dozen and in the end, only clutter the game for no good reason at all.

Now, on one hand, there are those players who are complaining their custom studs' cubs can't sell for big buck any more. Personally, I don't care - this is not a lion selling game so... tough luck.

On the other hand are those who, like me, would like to push for realism and would like to see the overflow of breedings and excess cubs done away with for those reasons alone. Those in the 'selling camp' can jsut as well tell the 'realistic' camp the same thing - Tough luck.

And then, of course, are those players who jsut like to take a few relaxing moments to look at some pretty lions and produce even more pretty lions because that's the way they like it. And no one should dictate to anyone else how to "properly" play their game - whatever amuses you the most is perfectly fine, right?

All that said, we do have one big common problem with excess cubs on here. People can't sell them, others are forced to chase away even when they don't want to. market is out of wack (since cubs are, for now, the only thing we're really actively tradign with one another) and subsequently, so is the overall economy.

Of course, you can always chase the cubs away and many people on here do exactly that. Some others don't, however and others yet are overflowing the market with low-end cubs, even giving them away for free because they jsut don't want to chase the cute little furballs away for purely sentimental reasons.


So, what to do to make all of us happy here - those who love studding their lions out cheaply, those who'd like to see only 'worthy' cubs on the market, those who'd like to force the prices up (or further down) again...?

Well, one thing that could go long ways to achieve that would be to create a way to sell the excess cubs directly to the game itself. Please bear with me while I expand the concept further:

Create a "cubs game store" and call it something like... "Lion Conservation Project" for example. If you can't sell a cub to other players and don't want to chase them away, your third alternative is to sell the cub to the "Conservation Range" instead.

Now, the symbolic fee you'd recieve for doing that should not be something big - Don't expect to sell the cublet for 500 SBs or 5 GBs or something. What you would be doing is a bit of a charity service there - you'd donate the cubs to a project dedicated to preserving and conserving the species, a project that would later on use those cubs or theri offspring to reintroduce the lions back in the areas in which they got extinct.
...Or whatever other suitable blurb suits you. I'm a biologist, so I like this one best. :P

However, not all cubs are really worth teh same, are they now? Someone would 'donate' a high statted cub and someone else a very low-statted one and they both get the same symbolic payment for them? Not fair. Or how about the difference between custom and non-custom lions, numbers of markings... everything?

Well, we'd calculate the payment you recieve based on several factors:

If you donate a high-stat cub, you'd get more than for donating a low-end one.

Far as the blurb goes, let's say that you just donated a healthy, strong new individual that is almost certain to survive to reproduce and create healthy offspring in turn. Good for you! You just made a huge difference in lion conservation project!

However, what if you donate a low-stat but high-markign or custom-coloured cub instead? Again, you'd recieve more than for donating the low-marking or wild-coloured one.

And the blurb for that would say that you have just introduced some very fresh and very valubale new blood to the overall gene pool. We all know (I hope) that one of the biggest problems in conservation is the extremely depeleted gene pools of the endangered species that we start from and therefore, donating 'fresh blood' (in other words custom colours/markings and so on) should be valubale in their own rights.


Small clarification here:
Since it has been pointed out in enough many comments that the idea of a lion intentionally giving cubs to humans is highly unrealistic, let me explain it a bit better. What the blurb would say would be something along the lines of "Humans came and picked out some cubs". What would actually happen game-mechanics-wise is that you, the player, would pick which cubs to donate.

I did not want to put the blurb first because people might get the wrong idea that I'm suggesting random cubs be taken from their dens without their input or agreement.


What do I hope to accomplish with this? For one, give some sort of a "drainage" route for the excess cublets on here. With this feature in place, many players would opt to donate the cubs there rather than go through a hassle of tryig to sell them or give them away. That would automatically mean far less clogging of the market and that, in turn, might give the prices a chance to stabilize in a more reasonable manner.

Finally, it could provide a small starting income for the new players - not much, but at least something. And also, a way to make those who just love breeding a chance to play the way they like palying without creating some huge disbalances in the process.


edit
I crunched some numbers for the "Conservation Center" now:

plain coat: 3SB
custom coat: 5SB
stats: 1 SB per 2 stats over 35 (rounded down)
:markings 4SB per marking (regardless of opacity)

Just to give you a rough idea of how that would work:

"Best" case scenario:

Custom-coloured, 10-marking cub with 100 stats:

5 (custom coat) + 15 (stats) + 40 (10 markings) = 60 SB

"Worst" case scenario:

Wild-coloured, 0-3 markings cub with under 30 stats:

3 (wild coat) + 0 (stats) + 0-12 (markings) = 3-15 SB

I'd say the prices are nicely evened-out; you'd be getting a really token payment for a very valubale cub and you'd get just enough to play a few Cups or glance at a Scrying Stone for a sub-par one.

Because the whole idea is to provide a way to do away with the excess cubs, not to provide a way to make tons of SBs.


edit

idea by Nephala [TCC] (#11886):
"Addition to the conservation to get people tossing cubs there instead of the TC would be a yearly reward from the "breeding stock," in the conservation sent on your birthday or a certain day of the year if you have donated enough cubs to the conservation. I'd think the "prize" could be anything from high stat lionesses to custom colored ladies."

alternate suggestion by Lynx (Raion) (#1885):
And maybe instead of custom ladies the prize could be gb for "highest donator for the year" so that no one can say "that wouldn't be fair for the people who buy/work hard for gb" or something along the lines since it would happen once a year.. And maybe have a certain amount of winners?


addition by muttduck (#78):
NONE of them [NCLs] should be in heat when claimed.

---while this does not pertain to the idea directly, it still deals with the overflow cublets problem and thus I added it in.
~~~~~~



This, of course, is just rough bone frame of an idea. Developing it further - how to determine the payments recieved to make them both reasonable and balanced above all needs some further tought. And since I'd rather not sit and ponder it all on my ownsies, I'm putting this up for discussion to see what others might come up with along these lines.

I'll make few suggestions to start it off:

---We could have a leaderboard for the "most cubs donated" or "most healthy cubs doanted" or "most genetically diverse cubs donated"

---We could have something like... badges or fame or however you choose to call it - a third in-game currency of sorts that, if you gain enough of it, would give you access to some special perks or something. Yes, yes, this would mean making a whole new "badge" or "fame" thing beforehand but... it's an idea at least.

And now I'd like to swim in a flood of yours! :P




This suggestion has 696 supports and 5 NO supports.



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Edited on 07/06/13 by WitchWolf (#5939)

Villis (#17034)

Usual
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Posted on
2013-08-11 06:23:10
Actually, Bynks, there is a factor that neither you nor I considered when it comes to Exalting. People don't exalt dragons enmass for the treasure reward. They exalt because of the dominance system.

And dominance is not a system I would like to see here in, in any variety. It causes far more problems than it's worth.

BUT...I think combining giving up cubs w/ a mechanical advantage is solid. Consider this....right now I have a few cubs that I know are worthless. They're low stat, common colors w/ few markings. I'm keeping them around anyway because there's no advantage not to do so, other than perhaps saving on food and frankly I have no problem getting enough. With no advantage to getting rid of them early, there's no reason not to at least let them age up and stick them in the trading center as adols, just to see if anyone might possibly take them.

So I say combine the two ideas. The reward for giving a cub to the center can then be kept quite small...too small to make breeding for that purpose profitable. Hell, it wouldn't even need to be a sb bonus...it could be random food or toys, and maybe a chance at a rare center-only prize like cups. But if you send a cub to the center, you also get the mechanical advantage of being able to breed again faster and get a cub that might actually sell.

This give players two reasons to get rid of cubs. Yet neither of these reasons would heavily affect the economy in other areas. People would be breeding more, but less cubs would appear in the trading center...and the sb profit for breeding to 'lose' would be too low to bother with.





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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2013-08-11 20:13:26
I dont want my idea to be combined with this. I am completely against the idea of giving something in return other than faster breeding. If you dont want the cubs, chase it. There should be no monetary or any reward that puts the people who breed excessively to advantage.

I would feel it would be unfair to those who actually do the market a favor and dont breed mindlessly. Because these kind people wont have a chance to get that extra toy or food, neither that amazing rare price for simply chasing an unwanted cub. Guys... just chase it, dont get attached. Or suffer the consequences of becoming attached.



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Kamau (#16726)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2013-08-14 18:54:09
Wait a moment, Axel, and hear me out:

The 'bad cubs' that you are complaining about (the ones that are the result of breeding mindlessly) are taken OUT of the system. They're no longer clogging up the trading post or the selling forum. The breeder does get a few SB for it, sure, and maybe a rare item, but those proceeds can be put towards getting a better quality lioness/stud.

This would lead to a gradual increase in cub quality all around. No one would want to breed cubs worth just a few sb when they could breed cubs for much more.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2013-08-14 20:34:51
Still not convinced. Why should someone get a rare price, food or toy just for chasing a cub which they dont want? I mean isnt it logical that you chase them anyway? I dont understand why people want these excessive breeders to have an advantage...

Those guys deserve to be clogged with cubs, unable to sell them, but not wanting to chase. Dont you understand that the people who breed will try first to sell on the market? They would be boosted to breed more because they know they will get money one way or another. They will be more confident to breed. But of course will see first if they can get more for selling on the market.

There should be no monetary or item reward for chasing. I say people should be motivated in a way that doesnt give them such advantage or rare items or whatnot. Breed faster if cubs are chased. That's it. They dont want to chase and are attached to pixel lions? Hell then let them suffer by having to take care of them. They will learn to chase because they run out of food and money. Learn the hard way or be smart. That's it.



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ChaosDeath🐱 (#2790)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2013-08-15 02:53:58
I have to admit, I started reading this a bit tentatively. But I love this. I'm probably not the only one who has held onto one either because of stats or looks. :3

And Axel that's not how it works, people will still be hoarding and selling large amounts. I tend to only try to sell really good ones, but not everyone is like that. We all suffer for it, not just the people throwing tons out into the market. So you might want to think about the bigger picture before you put stuff like that. Because I couldn't even give away custom coat and/or eye color cubs with good stats for the longest time.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2013-08-15 04:40:09
@ChaosDeath
I am not talking here for nothing. I am considering logic and fairness here.

So if you want to 'reward' the excessive breeders for -OMG- chasing a cub.... give it food, toys, SB, a RARE item....

Then tell me what will the people get in return who do the market a favor and dont breed excessively and dont need to chase? What will they get for not breeding mindlessly? What will they get for being smart and not holding onto a cub that they know wont sell? What would you give them?

Because if you reward excessive breeders... then you gotta reward those who dont breed excessively to make it fair.

OR

The reward should be non-monetary, non-advantage giving. No SB, no items, no food and no rare prize.
Like... instead reducing the waiting time for the next breeding if all the cubs are chased. That is actually tempting, natural and fair. It doesnt give an advantage yet it is a reward on its own.



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Edited on 15/08/13 by Axel (#6627)

Villis (#17034)

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Posted on
2013-08-16 07:17:54
Axel, you seem to be pushing that there's only one 'right' way to play the game, and that's carefully considered breedings w/ no attachment to cubs.

But there are MANY ways to play, and the economy will only balance if you account for them all. Some like to think of backstories for all their lions and don't like chasing because they get very attached. That's actually okay. Some focus very tightly on breeding only high stat and custom lions. Some like to experiment and breed just to see what happens (that's the category I fall into, at least for now.)

I highly, highly doubt people would be mass producing cubs specifically to get a token bit of food or sb. They're ALREADY mass producing, and they'll continue to do so. This just gives those cubs somewhere to go that isn't the trading post. Yes, you're 'rewarding' them for breeding, but you're also rewarding them for not flooding the market with cubs that WILL be bred regardless. You're 'rewarding' them for playing the game...it's just not the way YOU play the game. People here are frustrated because they can't sell cubs, and that goes for random breeders and careful selectors alike. This game survives by its users, as all sim games do, and the more 'types' of users the game appeals to, the more it will thrive. This gives the cubs that can't be sold somewhere to go, which in turn reduces flooding of the market and makes it easier to sell the really nice cubs and drives their prices back up. The careful selectors who put a lot of time and effort into things will STILL make more than the random breeders.

And if you want to speak of fairness, 'punishing' random breeders most affects new users. It's easy to breed carefully when you can select studs and purchase lionesses. Even easier if you can afford to buy GB. But when you're new, your NCLs and your randomly rolled lion are what you've got. They're not playing the game wrong by breeding them, and they deserve SOMETHING for jumping in and playing with what they're given. Even if it is something small. That's how games work...when you're new, you get small rewards, and as you get 'better' at the game, you get bigger and bigger rewards. Random breeding isn't so much about playing the game wrong, it's about LEARNING how to play it. Players who aren't rewarded for playing stop playing, and that's a bad thing for a sim site's survival.



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Axel (#6627)

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Posted on
2013-08-16 07:30:21
And everyone else acts as if mass breeding should be solely rewarded, people who mass produce should be patted in the shoulder for what they are doing. Yet those who actually dont destroy the market would go empty handed. They are pushed aside because they dont breed excessively.

No game is easy when you start them. No game will grant you advantage at start, no game starts as easy and gets harder in the end. No. A game starts hard, and the more you play the easier it will be. The more you work for it, the more you build your lion... A game will always start hard. You just gotta work a little bit to get better. That is all. And it is expected. Or buy GB ._. The new players arent being punished. They are pushed to actually play the game in order to reach something. You gotta work for everything in real life too.

Currently, the true effect of the studding limit isnt yet known, so how do you know that people are still mass producing? Because you see many cubs? Well, they could have still come from the old system. Mostly teens now. They are mass-breeding because there is no alternative solution that would make it fair for mass-breeders and non-breeders. This game didnt start out as a kitty breeding game, but a survival lion sim. The users decided that breeding is more worth than exciting adventuring and exploring.

You cant just go and tell everyone that breeding is the sole purpose of this game, reward mass-breeders and spit into everyone else's faces because they dont trade, because they arent playing your style. I would hate to see such an advantage given to breeders. It is just one way to play the game indeed, so if it is just one 'right' way to play, what reward would you give to those who dont breed? Those who dont play your style?

Giving items, rare stuff, SB, toys and food would give an unfair advantage to mass-breeders, whereas non-breeders would go empty handed. I say redusing breeding time if the cubs are chased is a much neater and much fairer way to lure people into chasing unwanted cubs. It doesnt exactly give an advantage but it will tempt the players who have fail cubs bred to chase them so they can try again much sooner than having to wait the 20 days.



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Powerlioness (#5194)

Malicious
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Posted on
2013-08-18 08:35:44
nice idea ^^ i also dont see the problem with " selling " the cubs to human since lions also dont sell them to other prides ;)



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Gutsy (#3097)


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Posted on
2013-09-08 12:47:57
No support.

I'm with Axel on this... It would be completely unfair to those who actually take the time to carefully plan and time their breedings.

Also, "Selling to other prides" can be taken as a pride member leaving their pride to join another, which DOES happen in real life often enough. Lions don't just walk up to humans and go "hey mister, want me to come live in your reserve for a pretty penny". Just because some of the colours and decor items aren't realistic, doesn't mean the general behaviour of the site needs to be unrealistic as well. The studding system is as unrealistic as the behaviour needs to be, in my opinion. :/



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Edited on 08/09/13 by Prowler (#3097)

Carry (#6215)

Fun
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Posted on
2013-09-08 14:34:04
No support, sorry guys



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Ulfruna (#19599)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2013-09-26 06:24:16
This has my support! <3



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Warrior (#20114)

Merciful
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Posted on
2013-10-18 14:21:16
This would be kind of like the SH in howrse I guess. Except, people wouldn't (hopefully) think that it means Slaughter House instead of Safe Haven, because it's called something way different. I support!



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Ponce de Leon (#21313)

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Posted on
2013-10-18 14:50:07
I've got a modest proposal for you all. What if there was an option of eating spare cubs instead of chasing them? That way, there'd be an incentive to get rid of them, similar to this system. However, since food is already reasonably abundant, it probably wouldn't be profitable enough to lead to cub milling.

I think as unpalatable as eating cubs may be, especially to those players who are already struggling with the concept of chasing them off, it would do a lot to prevent cubs from being a burden to the community and to make them beneficial to their prides.

I think the option to eat cubs might actually help players curb their excessive feelings for cubs, by encouraging them to view them strategically and not to get attached. And there would still always be the option of chasing them for no reward, as always, for those who remain squeamish. The downside, of course, would be that you'd miss out on a potential meal.

Plus, it's much more natural and realistic than selling your cubs off to humans. Cannibalism in lions is widely reported. Selling cubs off to humans, not so much.



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Katavi [Mhenga
Usafi] (#21119)

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Posted on
2013-10-18 17:21:19
I'm not sure either way. I can see the good and bad points, and understand what both sides are saying.

It's true that selling cubs to humans isn't super realistic, but then neither is allowing unrelated sub-males into your pride or having the females breed to other males. In both cases, the head male would kill the cubs. In real life, 'sub males' are normally the less dominant of brothers or occasionally cousins/uncles/nephews/etc. They aren't just some random male that was 'adopted'. I'm not saying the way sub-males is done in the game is bad, but it's not particularly realistic honestly.

I don't see a problem with getting a small amount of SB for a cub is a bad thing. I do not think people should get extras due to stats, coat colors, etc. I think there should be a flat-rate based on age. Roughly somewhere around this.

Cub under 1 = 3 SB
Adolescent (1 year - 1 year, 11 months) = 5 SB
Adult (2-10) = 10 SB

Nothing extra for markings, color, or stats. I think if we can get rid of cubs in this fashion, there's no reason not to allow people to trade in NCLs as well. Older lions, i.e. - ones that you've kept and bred, are not able to be traded in, even for the small fee. I don't think it's fair to, say, try and squeeze a last little bit out of a retiring female when she can't breed.

I also think if the lion/cub is not 100% fed and 100% in a good mood, no money. I think the hour long cool-down should apply in this case as well so people can't just mass claim NCLs or free lionesses for extra money.

And if people don't like the idea of selling to humans, what about 'trading' with an NPC lion pride? You allow them to take one of your cubs/lionesses for a few SB?

I know people are saying that would be a huge amount of people breeding just for the SB, but let's do the math a bit.

Let's say they had 40 lionesses. Even if each had 4 cubs (which is highly unlikely), that would equal 160 cubs. If they turned them in immediately that would only be 480 SB. That's really not that much. 160 Adolescents is only 800. Honestly, I managed to get 300 SB my first day just Exploring and fighting NPCs. And 480 SB would be the absolute max if they somehow had 40 lionesses with 4 cubs. Realistically, it would be fair less than that. Let's say they turned in 40 lionesses as well. That's 400 SB.

So, even if they turned in 40 Lionesses, each with 4 Adolescent cubs, that's only 1200 SB. Considering it would take at least 2 weeks to get that, it's just not viable that people are doing to "mass farm" SB from getting that small amount of money. That's really not even 2 GB for over a week of feeding, etc.

I really don't think that small amount of SB is going to hugely impact the economy, breeding, or prices when there are far faster, more efficient ways to get SB that don't cost tons of food, etc.

If a requirement to turning in the lion/cub is they have to be fully fed and fully played with (which I think it should), they're probably just recouping the price of a few servings of food.

That's just my personal opinion. If it's not a huge amount of money (the prices I listed or close to it), I don't see how anyone is going to suddenly get extremely rich by mass-breeding. Nor is it going to 'punish' those that are careful in breeding because those with high-stat, high quality cubs are going to get a lot more than a person breeding and turning in 20 cubs for 3 sb each. A single cub with good stats or a particularly rare color is going to be more than the 50-60 sb they're going to get for their 20 or so low quality cubs.



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