Posted by Lioden Genetics Guide (revised 5/11/15)

Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-08 05:27:22
Lioden's new inheritance model is here, and because it's based on another model I proposed (the one you may have seen and voted on in a News post), I thought I'd create a game guide for it to help explain how it works. This new model focuses on four basic factors inherited from one or both parents:
* Color Group: Black, Red, Cream, or Golden
* Gradient: Countershaded vs Solid color
* Shade/Range: Dark or Light
* Rarity: Common or Special

Unlike actual genetics, the only thing that matters is the visible color of each parent. Pedigree/heritage has no bearing on inheritance, and there are no recessive traits or "carriers": what you see is what you're working with. Here's what's at work in this model:


The first factor is Color Group. In this model, a cub will inherit a Color Group from one of its parents. These are the 4 color groups in this model:

photo BlackCSampSColorChartComplete.jpg

Cream Color Group Chart photo CreamColorChartComplete.jpg

Red Color Chart w/ Fiery photo RedColorChartComplete_2.jpg

Gold Color Chart w/Fulvous photo GoldColorChartComplete_3.jpg

If I cross two parents from the Black Color Group, then ALL offspring will come from the Black Color Group. If I cross a parent from the Black Color Group and the Red Color Group, I could get offspring from either the Black or Red Color Groups. If you're looking to produce offspring of a specific color, it is wise to breed parents from the same Color Group if not the same color; if you're looking for surprises and a wide variety of colors, breed two parents from completely different Color Groups.


The next factor in this model is Countershaded vs. Solid Colors, and a cub's appearance will be inherited just like its Color Group (from one parent only unless they're both the same). A Solid color looks exactly as it sounds: the base color is completely or nearly the same throughout the entire coat. A Countershaded color is a base color that has more than one color in its makeup, and while most colors countershade from a dark topline to a lighter underside, others are lighter at the topline and darker on the underside while the most recent is shaded darker along the midline. Here's some examples of what this looks like:

photo CountershadeExamplesFIXED.jpg

If both parents are Countershaded, then all cubs would be Countershaded; if both parents are Solid, then all cubs would be Solid, and if there is one parent of each type, then both Countershaded and Solid cub colors are possible.

If I cross two Countershaded parents, then ALL offspring will be Countershaded, and two Solid parents beget Solid offspring. If I cross a Countershaded parent and a Solid parent, I could get Countershaded or Solid offspring. If you're looking to produce offspring of a specific color, it is wise to breed parents that match the same Shade as your target color if not the same color; if you're looking for surprises and a wide variety of colors, breed a Countershaded parent and a Solid parent, which will increase your variety DRAMATICALLY.


The third factor in this model is Dark or Light Shade/Range. In this model, all colors within a Color Group are arranged into Dark and Light Shade/Ranges. The shade of the offspring is determined just like the other two factors:

Dark Range Color X Dark Range Color = Dark Range Color
Light Range Color X Light Range Color = Light Range Color
Dark Range Color X Light Range Color = Dark OR Light Range Color


I'll quote the original news post in regards to Rarity: "Rarity however is passed differently, and instead of simply being 50/50 between the mom or dad’s there’s only a 15% chance of a special cub per parent breeding. This means: If two specials breed, there is a 30% chance of a special cub. If one special breeds with a common, there is a 15% chance. If two commons breed, there is 0% chance.

Furthermore, there are a few bases that require at least one parent to have the same base when breeding in order to be passed on. Those are: Celestial, Lilac, Sepia, Pearl, Blush Rose, Inferno and Hallowed. Those bases also have a lower drop rate than regular special bases."

Albinos are somewhat different, as explained in Xy's update, "Albino genetics (are) still a random occurrence, but it has a chance of passing now if one parent is Albino, and that chance is higher if both are Albino."


Sounds simple enough, right? Let's give ourselves a chance to get familiar with this system and put all these factors to work! Here are two example breedings:

Example Breeding Similar photo ExampleBreedingSimilar.jpg

Breeding Example Different photo BreedingExampleDifferent_2.jpg

The second example shows how much variety a mismatched cross can give, so if you're looking for surprises, choosing wildly different parents will certainly give you that. On the other hand, if you're looking to breed a cub the same color as one of its parents, it pays to breed the desired parent to an individual of the same color or something from the same Color Group, Gradient, Shade/Range, AND Rarity.

... and that, fellow Lioden-ners (?!) is how Lioden inheritance works! I hope this guide has helped anyone with questions about the system to find the answers you were looking for, but if not, as I promised when I proposed my very first model 15 months ago, I will happily answer questions and help you find the best breeding to meet your goals here. Good luck and happy cub-making!

For the next "installment" of my game guides, here's a how-to about breeding strategies:

Successful Breeding for Specific Colors




Hrt Icon 3 players like this post! Like?

Edited on 11/05/15 by Alma (#7695)

Faeker (#46654)

Remarkable
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 06:04:44
I love this. This is going straight into my pinned bookmarks. What an awesome job Alma! :D Breeding just got a whole lot more interesting!

Side note; is Fawn missing from this, or am I super blind? :C



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Shnafflesnap (#21495)

Prince of the Savannah
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 07:32:57
Ahh Alma you are the best <3



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

loo (#19394)

Aztec Knight
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 07:44:32
bookmarked! thank you! it is even more fun now, i like to make charts, its more intuitive! /biology fan here

edit: would then albino not be counted as anything? like zero in every aspect? when you breed , say, a cocoa with an albino, only the characteristics of the cocoa will prevail? as in the offspring being only black/counter/light/special? Sorry, i know this has been answered but i got really confused still. If it is like that, wouldn't it be an easy way to spread/clone bases? 0o counting as of now, when it is still relatively easy to have/get albinos... (i guess that would fade with time, though.. unless im incorrect and all this is nonsense ahah)



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?


Edited on 10/05/15 by loo (accepting challenges) (#19394)

Snowcat13-5x
cimmerian G1 (#52694)

Prince of the Savannah
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 08:38:26
I do like the black group. I have a lot of maltese -maybe they will not be so hard to sell as before.
If I'm reading this correctly to get lilac my best chances are lilac x lilac, or silver, white, vanilla, or albino? Now I'm sorry I sold some of my slate girls since I like that base too, and now I won't get random ones from my silver stud.
I don't supposed you know what the "lower" drop rate is on Celestial, Lilac, Sepia, Pearl, Blush Rose, Inferno and Hallowed? It said in post specials were 15% per special parent, but those were lower.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Morr 🔥
9BOx2Mottx2RosMand (#26583)


View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 09:20:34
Thats actually a really good point Taergal i hadnt even thought of that but its totally true! ://



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Meso (#49519)

Usual
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 13:03:43
I do love the split between countershaded and solid (though I still cry over the placement of Hallowed as solid), but reading Taergal's post I realised my new crowned king (a fiery) is a giant gateway for numbered golds! it doesn't bother me all that much, but as a stud I think his desirability will go way down. Fiery and Inferno will become rarer (from % breeding drop) and also less desirable for breeding (too much chance of NCL golds) unless something changes (sexy new oasis only common countershaded gold bases in the near future?)




Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 15:37:05
No offense taken, Taergal. I completely understand where you're coming from. Although I wasn't a part of the drop rate decisions, I am pretty sure the drop rates were conceived to preserve the rarity of Specials in general. Unfortunately, no system, including the old one, is/was fail-safe. Onyx breeders were getting the short end of the stick by far and large last time, and this system helps a lot more color-specific breeders than the old one.

I want to share another viewpoint regarding "ugly" breeding stock. I used to breed gerbils with rare color genes (Colorpoints, Silver Nutmeg, Polar Fox), and the uber-rare Schimmel gene eluded me. Schimmel gerbils are born pumpkin orange, but lighten from the midline/torso to resemble a Flame Point Siamese at adulthood. I finally found another breeder that used to specialize in the color, but ended up specializing in show rats, so she downsized and was selling the last remainders. The only individual she had left from her Schimmel lines was a single, plain, unassuming little Pink-Eyed White who may or may not have been carrying the gene. He was very sweet, conformationally superior, and although his color was nothing much to look at, this would be my only chance to even have the possibility of obtaining this gene, so I bought him. I bred him to a Burmese, and already, I found he was carrying the also-rare Colorpoint, which was already a big plus. I linebred him to a daughter, and, lo and behold, their first litter contained a Red-Eyed AND a Dark-Eyed Schimmel! Lowly, sweet-natured little Yukon was the source of every Schimmel I ever owned and sold to other breeders, and he will always be my favorite.

... and @ Meso, I'm not at liberty to discuss them at all, but there are some AMAZING bases, many of which are inspired by my original 9-group model, that will be filling out these groups. Xy and I have already been discussing this, and I'm also going to talk to Kitty, too.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Msasi (#21461)

True King
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 16:04:00
Talking to people via PM to help them understand the new system, I've found a few people are getting tripped up trying to figure out what the traits of their base are / comparing bases to each other. And while I'm hoping the admin'll take up my suggestion to put the info in lion profiles (*cough*), here's just a plain ol' list of the bases and their traits. I have 'em grouped together by group and then by traits within the group, and it's been easier for me to compare bases together that way (I have this same list saved to a Notepad file on my desktop with my other LD breeding info files XD), so hopefully it's easier for anyone else who may be struggling a bit.

**BLACK GROUP**

Chestnut (Black Dark Solid Common)
Dark Brown (Black Dark Solid Common)

Onyx (Black Dark Solid Special)

Black (Black Dark Countershaded Common)
Vandal (Black Dark Countershaded Common)

Celestial (Black Dark Countershaded Special)
Slate (Black Dark Countershaded Special)

Albino (Black Light Solid Common)
Silver (Black Light Solid Common)
Vanilla (Black Light Solid Common)
White (Black Light Solid Common)

Lilac (Black Light Solid Special)

Gray (Black Light Countershaded Common)

Cocoa (Black Light Countershaded Special)
Maltese (Black Light Countershaded Special)

===================

**RED GROUP**

Brown (Red Dark Solid Common)
Mahogany (Red Dark Solid Common)

Sepia (Red Dark Solid Special)

Brass (Red Dark Countershaded Common)

Prune (Red Dark Countershaded Special)

Beige (Red Light Solid Common)
Fallow (Red Light Solid Common)

Sunshine (Red Light Solid Special)

Copper (Red Light Countershaded Common)
Deira (Red Light Countershaded Common)
Sandy (Red Light Countershaded Common)

Fiery (Red Light Countershaded Special)

===================

**CREAM GROUP**

Caramel (Cream Dark Solid Common)
Chocolate (Cream Dark Solid Common)
Khaki (Cream Dark Solid Common)

Russet (Cream Dark Solid Special)

Dove Gray (Cream Dark Countershaded Common)
Rosy Brown (Cream Dark Countershaded Common)

Blush Rose (Cream Dark Countershaded Special)

Cream (Cream Light Solid Common)
Cream Darker (Cream Light Solid Common)
Cream Lighter (Cream Light Solid Common)
Light Cream (Cream Light Solid Common)

Hallowed (Cream Light Solid Special)

Deep Fawn (Cream Light Countershaded Common)

Maroon (Cream Light Countershaded Special)

===================

**GOLD GROUP**

Mongoose (Golden Dark Solid Common)
Sundust (Golden Dark Solid Common)

Udara (Golden Dark Solid Special)

Dark Golden (Golden Dark Countershaded Common)
Golden 4 (Golden Dark Countershaded Common)
Golden 5 (Golden Dark Countershaded Common)

Inferno (Golden Dark Countershaded Special)

Dark Fawn (Golden Light Solid Common)
Fawn (Golden Light Solid Common)

Pearl (Golden Light Solid Special)

Golden 1 (Golden Light Countershaded Common)
Golden 2 (Golden Light Countershaded Common)
Golden 3 (Golden Light Countershaded Common)
Light Golden (Golden Light Countershaded Common)

Fulvous (Golden Light Countershaded Special)



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?


Edited on 11/05/15 by Msasi (Fight Me!) (#21461)

Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 17:36:56
Msasi, you're a ROCKSTAR!

As promised, I've added a breeding-specific guide at the bottom of the original post - I hope it helps!



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?


Edited on 11/05/15 by Alma (#7695)

Valana {HM} (#44115)


View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 19:59:18
I'm slightly confused about the drop-rates for the "super-special" bases (Celestial, Lilac, Sepia, Pearl, Blush Rose, Inferno and Hallowed). It just say they are lower than the other specials (so under 15% per parent) but doesn't give a number. Does anyone know the exact rate? Also for these bases do the percentages stack like for the normal special ones (and with the normal special ones)? How doe the percentages for the "super-special" pass down to the "normal-special" ones?


So basically, is my thinking for this correct?

1 normal parent x 1 normal parent = 0% chance for special
1 "normal-special" parent x 1 normal parent = 15% chance for "normal-special"
1 "normal-special" parent x 1 "normal-special" parent = 30% chance for "normal special"


I think this far I'm still correct but now I get confused (I will call chance for "super-special" base x% for this since I don't know the exact number, with x<15):

1 "super-special" parent x 1 normal parent =
x% for "super-special base" + 0% for "normal-special" base OR
x% for "super-special base" + 15% for "normal-special" base OR
x% for "super-special" base + x% for "normal-special" base

1 "super-special" parent x 1 "normal-special" parent=
x% for "super-special" base + 15% for "normal-special" base OR
(x% + 15%) for both "super-special" and "normal-special" OR
x% for "super-special" + (x% + 15%) for "normal-special" OR
x% for "super-special" + 30% for "normal-special"

1 "super-special" parent x "1 "super-special" parent =
(x% + x%) for "super-special" + (x% + x%) for "normal-special" OR
(x% + x%) for "super-special" + 30% for "normal-special" OR
(x% + x%) for "super-special" + 0% for "normal-special"


I hope this makes somewhat sense to someone xD
Anyway, which of these ideas are correct, if any?



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Meso (#49519)

Usual
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 23:31:53
I think I get what you are trying to say Valana.
They haven't specified that the "normal-specials" need at least one parent of that coat, so I have assumed it means there is a small drop rate for those bases from "super-special" and normal breedings.

as for the percentages, if they are not given to us we can work it out by using the cub genetics spreadsheet (though that is still being updated to fit with these changes) .

the first lot of combinations you put down look right but I got no idea about your "super-special" part XD



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Valana {HM} (#44115)


View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 23:37:14
Meso

Yeah, as far as I understand it if you want a special one parent has to be special, but can have a different special base than the one you get as long as it is "normal special".

Yeah, that's my best guess as well. Some people have also put it into the cub generator Xy gave us and it seems to be at around 10%, but I don't know if that was 10% for each parent or 10% all together if both parents are super special. I got to 14 Sepia cubs with both parents at Sepia and 100 tests done, but 100 isn't much to go by and I don't know how reliable the cub base tester is for figuring out the percentages.

Hm, I thought so. I was quite sure about the first ones, since the news post was rather clear on those, but the super-special ones should have gotten some more explanation, I think xD



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Snowcat13-5x
cimmerian G1 (#52694)

Prince of the Savannah
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-10 23:58:30
I'd really like to know that as well. I've been doing lilac breeding, but that's one of the super specials. LOL. What are my chance now with a lilac x lilac, or lilac x other. I have a feeling it's much harder than it was before to get my favorite purple girls.




Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?

Valana {HM} (#44115)


View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-11 00:54:36
Snowcat

I feel your pain! I am a Sepia breeder and my plan is to have a Sepia-only pride on my side...well, kinda terrified now xD
I've got 17 Sepia girls right now, plus the Sepia king and it's been going really well and the amount of Sepias in my pride has been slowly increasing, but now I'm worried that it won't increase anymore on the long run or even decrease. I'm also stuck with terrible fail colours if I breed Sepia x Sepia (which I have to, since it's apparently the highest chance for me to get a Sepia, if I understand it right): Brown and Mahagony....yeah, great xD
I'm also worried I'll never be able to breed a pretty Sepia ever again and I'll just have to keep my currents Sepia kings looks forever since I'll never have a pretty replacement xD

I mean, they said some specials were even harder to breed before the update, but I wonder if this applies to Sepia and Lilac or if those (and the other "super-specials") got harder.



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?


Edited on 11/05/15 by Valana (#44115)

Msasi (#21461)

True King
View Forum Posts


Posted on
2015-05-11 01:20:52
Hullo, fellow Sepia breeder. c:

Sepia x Sepia is best because the only special that pairing can throw (right now, anyway) is Sepia. Of course, yeah, that means a lot of Mahogany and Brown fails. XD

I suggest expanding out into other X Dark Solid Specials (Onyx, Russet, Udara) as breeding partners for your Sepias if you want a bit more variety in your fails. You can expand out even further from that, of course, to expand your possible fails even further.

Personally, I'll be breeding to a whole mix of stuff. Sepia x Sepia to have my chance at Sepia, but breeding Sepia x A Wide Variety of Other Things just to give some variety and see what nifty colors pop out. I like being surprised. c:



Hrt Icon 0 players like this post! Like?







Memory Used: 646.51 KB - Queries: 0 - Query Time: 0.00000 - Total Time: 0.00422s