Posted by Lioden Genetics Guide (revised 5/11/15)

Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2015-05-08 05:27:22
Lioden's new inheritance model is here, and because it's based on another model I proposed (the one you may have seen and voted on in a News post), I thought I'd create a game guide for it to help explain how it works. This new model focuses on four basic factors inherited from one or both parents:
* Color Group: Black, Red, Cream, or Golden
* Gradient: Countershaded vs Solid color
* Shade/Range: Dark or Light
* Rarity: Common or Special

Unlike actual genetics, the only thing that matters is the visible color of each parent. Pedigree/heritage has no bearing on inheritance, and there are no recessive traits or "carriers": what you see is what you're working with. Here's what's at work in this model:


The first factor is Color Group. In this model, a cub will inherit a Color Group from one of its parents. These are the 4 color groups in this model:

photo BlackCSampSColorChartComplete.jpg

Cream Color Group Chart photo CreamColorChartComplete.jpg

Red Color Chart w/ Fiery photo RedColorChartComplete_2.jpg

Gold Color Chart w/Fulvous photo GoldColorChartComplete_3.jpg

If I cross two parents from the Black Color Group, then ALL offspring will come from the Black Color Group. If I cross a parent from the Black Color Group and the Red Color Group, I could get offspring from either the Black or Red Color Groups. If you're looking to produce offspring of a specific color, it is wise to breed parents from the same Color Group if not the same color; if you're looking for surprises and a wide variety of colors, breed two parents from completely different Color Groups.


The next factor in this model is Countershaded vs. Solid Colors, and a cub's appearance will be inherited just like its Color Group (from one parent only unless they're both the same). A Solid color looks exactly as it sounds: the base color is completely or nearly the same throughout the entire coat. A Countershaded color is a base color that has more than one color in its makeup, and while most colors countershade from a dark topline to a lighter underside, others are lighter at the topline and darker on the underside while the most recent is shaded darker along the midline. Here's some examples of what this looks like:

photo CountershadeExamplesFIXED.jpg

If both parents are Countershaded, then all cubs would be Countershaded; if both parents are Solid, then all cubs would be Solid, and if there is one parent of each type, then both Countershaded and Solid cub colors are possible.

If I cross two Countershaded parents, then ALL offspring will be Countershaded, and two Solid parents beget Solid offspring. If I cross a Countershaded parent and a Solid parent, I could get Countershaded or Solid offspring. If you're looking to produce offspring of a specific color, it is wise to breed parents that match the same Shade as your target color if not the same color; if you're looking for surprises and a wide variety of colors, breed a Countershaded parent and a Solid parent, which will increase your variety DRAMATICALLY.


The third factor in this model is Dark or Light Shade/Range. In this model, all colors within a Color Group are arranged into Dark and Light Shade/Ranges. The shade of the offspring is determined just like the other two factors:

Dark Range Color X Dark Range Color = Dark Range Color
Light Range Color X Light Range Color = Light Range Color
Dark Range Color X Light Range Color = Dark OR Light Range Color


I'll quote the original news post in regards to Rarity: "Rarity however is passed differently, and instead of simply being 50/50 between the mom or dad’s there’s only a 15% chance of a special cub per parent breeding. This means: If two specials breed, there is a 30% chance of a special cub. If one special breeds with a common, there is a 15% chance. If two commons breed, there is 0% chance.

Furthermore, there are a few bases that require at least one parent to have the same base when breeding in order to be passed on. Those are: Celestial, Lilac, Sepia, Pearl, Blush Rose, Inferno and Hallowed. Those bases also have a lower drop rate than regular special bases."

Albinos are somewhat different, as explained in Xy's update, "Albino genetics (are) still a random occurrence, but it has a chance of passing now if one parent is Albino, and that chance is higher if both are Albino."


Sounds simple enough, right? Let's give ourselves a chance to get familiar with this system and put all these factors to work! Here are two example breedings:

Example Breeding Similar photo ExampleBreedingSimilar.jpg

Breeding Example Different photo BreedingExampleDifferent_2.jpg

The second example shows how much variety a mismatched cross can give, so if you're looking for surprises, choosing wildly different parents will certainly give you that. On the other hand, if you're looking to breed a cub the same color as one of its parents, it pays to breed the desired parent to an individual of the same color or something from the same Color Group, Gradient, Shade/Range, AND Rarity.

... and that, fellow Lioden-ners (?!) is how Lioden inheritance works! I hope this guide has helped anyone with questions about the system to find the answers you were looking for, but if not, as I promised when I proposed my very first model 15 months ago, I will happily answer questions and help you find the best breeding to meet your goals here. Good luck and happy cub-making!

For the next "installment" of my game guides, here's a how-to about breeding strategies:

Successful Breeding for Specific Colors




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Edited on 11/05/15 by Alma (#7695)

Valana {HM} (#44115)


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Posted on
2015-05-11 01:29:21
Msasi

Hi! Always nice to see another Sepia breeder :3 There aren't that much of us around, are there?
I think I actuall used your stud once or twice before I managed to get my own Sepia king (on my side). Since he's new I've just been breeding all my girls to him and not been using outside studs for a while. I really should start doing that again, I love the Cream Dust your boy has! <3

Yeah, that's what I though. I might breed it with Celestial from time to time, because that actually throws a wide range of pretty fails :3
But I won't be expanding on my side, since it is supposed to become a Sepia-only pride. I guess I will occasionally breed the to other bases and send the cubs to my main which is much more mixed :D

I just wish Sepia were countershaded, since that's what I really liked about it and I absolutely hate the idea of special bases being wherever, just because they're special and it doesn't matter. Because one of the reasons I like Sepia is because it actually is countershaded, so I really don't want those ugly solid cubs just because that's were Sepia was put. Sorry, just had to get that out of my system, feeling much better now xD



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Edited on 11/05/15 by Valana (#44115)

Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2015-05-11 01:57:37
Aw, thanks. <3 I love the cream dust, too, and it's looking like my next heir will also have the cream dust, so the tradition will continue. XD

I hear you on the disappointment of Sepia being solid instead of countershaded, but it's important to remember that specials weren't sorted that way because they're special and don't matter, but because they only had a limited number of specials to work with, and they needed to make sure every group had at least one special for each section. All (or almost all) of the existing specials have countershading, so if they'd been sorted that way, there would be no Sold Specials (or only one or two across all the groups).

And if you compare Sepia to Prune on the base level, I can see why Sepia got chosen to be the Solid and Prune got to be the Countershaded:

sepia.pngprune.png

Sepia still has some obvious countershading, but it's a bit muted compared to the Prune.

If nothing else, there are some awesome things that can be done with Solid fail cubs markings-wise. :)



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Valana {HM} (#44115)


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Posted on
2015-05-11 02:03:06
Nice! Will your heir be Sepia as well?

I know that, but that is the excuse they have been using when confronted with this.
And anyway, I think it would have been a lot better to just say "Ok, guys. We don't have any solid specials yet, so we'll release those over the next few month and it'll be awesome!" That way us coutershade breeders would have been happy and we could all now look forward to some new special bases....

Sure, Sepia is more countershaded, but I still think Sepia should have been in that group as wel, havin 1 specials, just like in other groups. I wouldn't mind if there weren't any specials for some groups. Waiting for new ones would have been fun and at least it would make sense that way and admins wouldn't have to resort to the "they're special so they can be different" argument xD



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2015-05-11 02:07:18
The thing is, if they released a ton of actual solid-looking specials, people would likely be pissed off that a plain old boring base has a low drop rate and takes up a special slot / that they have to use a boring base as a special to help in their breeding projects (read: some people's reaction to Sunshine). I definitely prefer the way they've chosen to do it, personally. Guess we just have to agree to disagree. ;)



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Valana {HM} (#44115)


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Posted on
2015-05-11 02:19:24
Idk, there are a few very pretty solids, like Chestnut and Chocolate, so I see no reason why there couldn't be more :)
I mean, I totally get why they did it like this and I'm definitely not one of those people who go all "Well, I'm gonna stop playing now" or anything. I just think it could have been done better and I am a bit unhappy by the fact that my personal breeding project now throws so many uglies, but that's just it, it's my personal breeding project, so I am not suggesting they change it for me or anything (I actually hate it that they switched Fiery and Fulvous, even though I benefit from it). So this is just me complaining a bit for the sake of my own happiness, since complaining does feel good, but overall I accept how it is and that's that :)



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2015-05-11 02:42:59
*hug*

I understand! Everyone deserves the chance to grouse a little bit. ;D



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Valana {HM} (#44115)


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Posted on
2015-05-11 02:53:12
Hehe, thanks :D I feel better now.
All I need now is an answer to my post at the top of the page ^^ But I guess a lot of people want that xD Maybe tomorrow someone who knows will have answered :D



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2015-05-11 02:57:34
Yeah, the Super Specials thing I don't know. :o They haven't given us the exact percentage, and since they never gave us exact passing percentages in the old system, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want to do so here, either. I'd /assume/ somewhere between 5-10%, buuuut that's just a random assumption on my part. XD

Likewise, I'd assume Super Special x Super Special would have increased odds (somewhere under the 30% from Special x Special), but, again, that's just an assumption on my part.



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Before (#25066)

Lone Wanderer
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Posted on
2015-05-11 04:09:23
Valana - I did some testing using the Breed test thing I've seen floating around chat/the forums, and this is my results:


LilacXLilac
4 lilac out of 100

LilacXHallowed (Both Solid Light Super-Specials, only difference is Color (Black vs. Cream)
3 hallowed
6 lilac
out of 100

LilacXOnyx (Both Black Solid, difference is Onyx is dark and normal special, Lilac is light and super-special)
16 onyx
3 lilac
out of 100

LilacXSepia (solid super-specials, with two normal special possibilities)
0 lilac
5 sepia
5 onyx
8 sunshine
out of 100
(lilac is possible, I clicked using this pairing a few more times and it popped up)

LilacXChestnut (both Black solid, only other special possible is onyx)
1 lilac
10 onyx
out of 100

So, it looks like breeding a super-special to itself does not improve the chances of getting a cub of that color. Granted, this is only out of 100, so things can get pretty skewed at that rate. Feel free to do your own tests using the breeding tester, it seems accurate (and has been updated with the Fiery/Fulvous change, as well. Not sure about Albino.)



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Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2015-05-11 05:34:50
I also modified all of the charts and all of the breeding examples to reflect the change. I really appreciate the addition of the breeding test results, as I'm not privy to the percentages programmed into the system and have no control over drop rates. From what I could gather from PM's/News Posts, it appears that "Super Specials" *MAY* have gotten a slight increase, but please don't quote me on that.

I really hope today's updates helped people - with so flippin' many Goldens and Creams that are very similar and really needed to be placed together, all of which were conceived long before this model was, the gun was already loaded, and it was kind of like a game of Russian Roulette pairing them with a Special, if that makes any sense. Now the Fulvous people will be trying to dodge that bullet, but I'm hoping my breeding-specific game guide helps provide some strategies for that problem.

BTW, Msasi, you're so very nail-on-the-head about Sunshine. Xy was shocked that I placed that one as a Special, but seriously, there's sooooooo much shading in those Specials. It's like cutting the corners off a square piece and trying to slam it into a round hole with a hammer!

I just wanted to extend another thank you to everyone that's trying to answer questions and provide results and to everyone who is remaining civil while the proverbial dust settles. I truly hope every one of you finds a strategy that can help you achieve a high rate of success while keeping you challenged, because that's what we were shooting for in the first place.

Again, don't hesitate to PM me, although seriously, Msasi, you're doing such a great job fielding these questions! <3

... and now I finally get to play my game! Amani, Jimiyu (my side), and all of my ladies must think I don't love them anymore... XD



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Snowcat13-5x
cimmerian G1 (#52694)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2015-05-11 05:44:37
Oh ouch on the lilac x lilac only 4. I tried it earlier and out of 25 only got 1. So yeah, MUCH harder than it was before. I'm really re-thinking the breeding project I've been doing last couple of months. I'm going to try lilac x lilac for a few weeks, but if it's as hard as I suspect I probably won't get the replacement king I wanted. On the bright side, I'm very fond of the onyx/black/celestial/slate colors so who knows. Maybe I'll switch my next king over to that. At least I like all the bases in the black group. Except Vanilla. LOL.



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Xylax (#4)

Dreamboat of Ladies
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Posted on
2015-05-11 06:45:43
I find Inferno to be blood stained gold :)



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Msasi (#21461)

True King
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Posted on
2015-05-11 07:44:15
Alma - No problem, happy to help! <3 Enjoy being able to focus on your lions for a bit, ahaha.

Snowcat - I just did 300 Lilac x Lilac tests and 300 Sepia x Sepia tests. 26/300 Lilacs and 31/300 Sepia, which is I think just over 8.5% and just over 10%, so I'd wager my initial guess of 5-10% isn't too far off. :) At least for Super Special x Super Special.



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Snowcat13-5x
cimmerian G1 (#52694)

Prince of the Savannah
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Posted on
2015-05-11 08:32:03
Msasi-
Thanks for the data. I appreciate you taking the time.
10% doesn't suck, but 5% scares me. :)
Now I have to find that tester to see what celestial x lilac does. At least the fails would be practically any color in the black group right? Including all the other special because they aren't "Special Special". LMAO.

Edit-
Is this the correct tester link?
http://www.lioden.com/breedingtest.php

I just did 400 tests with celestial x lilac. I only got 1 celestials (.25%) and 13 lilacs (3.25%). I like your data much better.



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Edited on 11/05/15 by Snowcat13 (fight me plz) (#52694)

Alma (#7695)

King of the Jungle
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Posted on
2015-05-11 15:19:54
That's why it was put in Gold, Xy... and of course, YOU would know what it looks like!!! XD



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