Posted by Hiding Triggering Images for Players

ratthew {G2 Torn
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Posted on
2020-03-04 20:56:58
WHEW. So. How about that news post?

For those uninformed, Lioden has officially stated that they're going to start rolling out more self-censorship features. This means that we, as players, can expect in the sometime future for there to be a feature that hides NSFW or gore images, and then some.

I don't know if this is due to our efforts on this topic or not, but either way, it's a HUGE win for everyone here. Thank you all so much for your support!

As with every other edit, I'm leaving the rest of this post the same. But as of right now, I think we can officially consider this a success! <3


EDIT: I'm putting this at the beginning because it's important. The event is over but this is STILL a problem that persists in the game. I implore you to not ignore this for the next year until more people have to go through this again. Thank you. Edit over.

Hi all! I realize this was posted about a year ago, and was met with a very split responses. So I'm here to also post! I please ask that you read the whole post before supporting or not supporting.

So, as the title says, this suggestion is to hide gore or bloody images for players who are sensitive to that sort of thing! Everyone pretty much gets the gist of what this is, as I have seen old topics like it. But I figure some people might have questions, so I'm prepared to answer those! Let's start with a bit of FAQ.

Q: This game is 16+, and should have gore/blood (and other adult themes) in it, as that's how lions work.

A: Sure! This game is 16+, but that doesn't mean everyone 16 or over wants to see a fairly realistic drawing of an elephant with its face torn off. Not seeing blood/gore wouldn't ruin an integral part of this game, such as taking away breeding, another 16+ topic. As for the "that's how lions work" part, well, this game isn't *really* that realistic, now is it? We literally have an event based around the apocalypse. We have green and blue and pink lions. We meet a manticore and fight with heaven and hell.

Q: Why not just disable the whole event?

A: Why should someone have to cease from playing the game because of something that can easily be avoided? Events are such an important part of this game and community, and to force someone not to be a part of it because they're sensitive to seeing images that depict terrible things isn't a good way to handle this. If someone wants to still participate, they should be able to! Also, the March event in particular also helps to raise funds for anti-poaching organizations. To force players to hide the event could negatively impact funds raised.

Q: Why can't you just use adblock and block the images that way?

A: First off, that would require having to look at the images first in order to get the image url to block them. Secondly, that doesn't work on mobile, which a LOT of players use primarily! Having a toggle would be much better suited for mobile players.

Q: Yeah, but I want to see gore.

A: You can! The idea I have in mind is a toggle that appears on a users page in the same area you would change your password. There, you can use a toggle to disable gorey images. Maybe in the future, if enough support is gained, there can be support for the sexually explicit images of lions in the February event.

Q: But there's so much other triggering stuff besides the event! How are you gonna hide that?

A: Simply put, you don't need to. If you don't want to interact with bloody looking lions, you don't have to. However, in order to enjoy the game to its fullest, you DO have to play the events. There is literally never a point in time on this site that there isn't an event going on.

Q: What would the images be instead?

A: Depends on what's easiest to do! It could be a blurred image instead, or the image could simply not load in, or it could just be replaced by a generic "BLOCKED" sign or something of the sort. It could also be an option to hide ALL event images while still keeping the event text up. Honestly, anything to make people more comfortable would work!

Q: Why should the devs waste time on this?

A: Well, because the players are important! Without them, there would be no game, and no matter how small the minority who NEED this are, the people who want it are probably a larger group in total. I'm uncomfortable with seeing this stuff, sure, but I'm not having a panic attack upon seeing this and being forced out of playing the whole game for a month because I physically cannot stand seeing it, like others are. I see no reason why people should be excluded from the fun of this game because of things that are out of their control, and I'd hope that the devs can see that too.


These are just some frequently asked questions I noticed on other similar boards I thought I'd take care of, but if anyone else has questions, please feel free to ask those! I'm very willing to talk to anyone who's interested in supporting, or anyone who is wary about supporting.

:::EDIT:::

Bezthiel made an absolutely excellent point, that I'm going to quote here:

"If the ToS says:
6.1
You are bound by, and must comply with, our Code of Conduct.

6.2
You also agree that you will not in connection with the Game:
breach any applicable law, regulation or code of conduct;
publish or send any Content (including links or references to other content), or otherwise behave in a manner, which:
is defamatory, threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive, vulgar, racist, hateful, discriminatory, obscene, pornographic, sexually suggestive, misleading, abusive or deceptive or which attacks sexual orientation, promotes self-harm or eating disorders, involves murder, rape, suicide, terrorism, excessive gore or hacking;

Then these are things that I can reasonably assume are not mentioned in site context.

Yet rape, suicide, and gore certainly are. We should either be warned or be able to opt out.

And before anyone says "but the newspost!" The 'excuse us for being blunt' is not the same as 'you will be shown pictures of horribly tortured, maimed, animals'. A warning is blunt."

A few suggestions have been made about the overall functioning of the system! In general, it seems a lot of people enjoy the idea of just disabling explore images in general. This is a simple solution and could work wonders for everyone.

On the other side of the spectrum, we have suggestions where players could pick and choose which images to disable, whether that be by a category (NSFW images) or by looking at a list of image descriptions and disabling them that way.

To reflect these options, I've changed the name of the topic from "Hiding Gore for Players" to "Hiding Triggering Images for Players" as we've come to the conclusion that it isn't just gore that's the problem.



This suggestion has 257 supports and 75 NO supports.



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Edited on 08/05/20 @ 12:11:20 by clay {CLEAN Solaris!} (#128553)

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Ros [Side] (#80015)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 10:51:18
Yes, then there really is no issue with the suggestion in my mind. and if someone wanted to block every single event encounter, there could just be a "select all" feature. In my mind, it would be broken into individual event encounters (ie. a page for each month event) and then a generic page for each explore zone.

It would take a lot of time to code, which is an issue considering how busy the LD team are, but I don't see the point in the Lioden team implementing a feature that would only need further tweaking which doesn't necessarily solve the problem. The original "blanket" suggestion seems like it would just get further criticism IMO once it was implemented. this way, any specific images which people found triggering or otherwise disturbing could be disabled—either after seeing them in explore or based on the description.

But equally each event would only need to be added for the start of that event, so the work would not need to be done all at once and could be spread out over a year. The team could then also implement it for basic explore encounters when they have time to do so.



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Creek (#188551)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 11:27:32
Yeah. I see the benefit of this idea, because it would only need tweaking when new encounters are created. It allows for everyone to customize the content they see, and leaves room open for the future. And of course, it's better to put in lots of effort to create something that will fix the issue, then to have to constantly be tweaking the solution. :D



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Ros [Side] (#80015)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 12:27:38
I think so. If you’re going to make a change might as well do it well. That’s my biggest gripe with the original suggestion—too generic and doesn’t really fix the problem to my mind.



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Bezthiel 🍉 (#81210)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 13:56:54
Problematically, you're still missing a few things, even like that.

You're focusing only on event images, and there are non-event images people could easily find disturbing. We need to be able to decide on those too, if we're to censor images at all. Since no pages for explore exist on the wiki, I can't link any. A few I can think of off the top of my head are a dying addax in the desert (or is is a camel?) and a dead vulture in rocky cliffs.

A lot of people use this site frequently in low service areas, or even restricted data plans. Images are hogs! Some of us literally cannot view images in some of our play areas. Once again, event images aren't the only issue.

I really think like allowing people to individually toggle every single explore image balloons into a huge project. Sure, we'd all benefit eventually. After a long time of coding and testing... Toggling images off wholesale is quick, easy(er), and solves so many issues. Now. For people who need it.

Know you hate tons of Halloween images? Images off during Oct. Know you're moving into dry desert and hate the dying camel? Images off for your desert exploration levels.



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Astrid┋CLEAN 3.7K
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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:05:55
i agree with bezthiel— while ideally, being able to toggle each encounter individually would have the greatest success rate, this suggestion seems like the quickest solution. ideally, i would want to only need to toggle off the gore/NSFW encounters, but honestly, if there was an option to just toggle off event encounters, i'd definitely use it in February. i mean i'd miss the pretty art, like the scene of the two adolescents by the waterfall, but at least i wouldn't have to see lions going at it

also, i do understand the idea of it being educational, but the way it's framed in the feb event is by no way realistic in the least, with all the "flirting" and "eye-batting", and the idea that you can "spy" on lions having sex (lions do not care!! if you're watching them!!!! it just makes it weird that they do in those encounters!!!!) if they wanted to make it realistic and educational, maybe they'd have an encounter called "lion takes over pride and murders all the cubs bc he wants to continue his genes and nobody else's"— you still get your NSFW encounter (oof what a massacre) but at least it's based in fact and not the team's strange desire to portray human sexual relations with lions (btw, this isn't a jab at whoever mentioned the educational aspect, any irritation that might have leaked into my tone is directed at the problem itself)

@lime ahh that's such a perfect example. it almost makes me want to start a thread in the rp board and just post images of the linden february art instead of writing posts to demonstrate what the rp is and see if they lock their own content like you, I'm not really mad about it either, I'm more just kinda disturbed and a little irritated that i have to see it on my screen in february

clearly, my problems are more with the sexual encounters— the implications of making lions uncomfortable by pursuing them or making innuendos about their gender/sex appeal (lions shouldn't even have the potential to HAVE sex appeal, but i suppose that's besides the point) rubs me particularly the wrong way— but i also want this implemented for those who could be strongly affected by the violent imagery

i do believe to an extent that people are responsible for monitoring their own mental health— for example, if this game rated itself M for "graphic violent and sexual imagery" and made that clearly known when making an account, then by all means, it would be ridiculous for people to rally for blocking images. but the game is supposed to be a relatively enjoyable, peaceful-to-play sim game— i don't believe it's meant to challenge you emotionally (also, I'm from the US, so 16 isn't really old enough in my eyes to be exposed to some of the content in this game, but i suppose that's a culture difference)



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:06:18 by Kami (6.6K Ice 3xRos Svelte) (#124118)

Thalath {Offline} (#41669)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:08:26
@Kami

Sorry for being a little bit pedantic, but M-rated games are actually 17+, not 18+. the AO rating is 18+. Lioden's content is pretty in-line with M-rated games, violence-wise, imo. The lion mating stuff? I don't know. That's pretty sketchy since it's probably not really considered "pornographic" I guess.

Even T-rated games can have pretty fucked up stories/dialogue in them that isn't outright stated, but very heavily implied. PG-13 movies as well.

As an example, The Walking Dead is TV-17 and has a lot of rape implications (VERY explicit ones) and a lot of extreme violence and gore.

edit: I'm not saying Lioden shouldn't have a "hide explore images" option btw, it should, there's no reason not to include it even for just bandwidth reasons. It's a nice option to have.



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:17:47 by Thalath {online} (#41669)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:29:21
@thalath no need to apologize, but i'm just a tad confused because i didn't say 18+ haha. i was referring to the fact that in Europe the age limits for things are generally younger than the US's (drinking age, age of consent for all activities, etc). And you're very right, it is in line with an M-rated game, which is very problematic considering it isn't one haha

i would argue that by the sites standards for roleplaying content (which i would hope would hold true site-wide), it definitely would be considered pornographic. the other main issue i have with the lion mating stuff is it is entirely unnecessary, and not even realistic so they can't even make the argument that it's educational. if they really like it that much, then by all means, keep it, but at least give players the chance to not have to look at it. i especially take issue with it because if you really read into the implications of realism in relation to how lions operate reproductively in combination with human emotion, the implication is essentially that lion's mating rituals (which is essentially rape of the female) is okay. obviously, i don't believe the game intends for that problem to arise, but with the boundary that it walks between the male-dominated society it creates and the elevated human awareness that it gives lions, it's very... uncomfortable to think about. one or the other would be fine on its own (patriarchal lifestyle for lions with animalistic intelligence because that's realistic, or elevated human awareness for a society in which lions are equal), but together... there's a lot of room for very, very wrong implications. and while we are allowed to present our leading lions as female, all the text for them still says things like "you puff up your mane" or "the other male" and things like that which clearly imply the "you" to be male.

of course, that's just a psych/english major with an interest in gender studies taking a shallow glance into a lion game, and I'm not trying to start anything. i just want to point out that with all the things players let lioden get away with, the least they can do is provide an option for us to not have to look at the violent/sexual images



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:30:14 by Kami (6.6K Ice 3xRos Svelte) (#124118)

Creek (#188551)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:31:05
Honestly i support most of the ideas that have been posted. Perhaps the specific toggling of each encounter could be a longterm goal/project, but in the mean time simply having this kind of general toggle would be awesome as well. I just want this feature implemented to allow us to hide the images in some way :D

About the whole sexual thing... This past February was my first February playing Lioden, and it truly surprised me just how sexual the event was. It surprised me how for a site trying to be somewhat realistic (though i understand how it isn't, with the manticores and such XD ), animals reproducing was being treated much more than just 'intimate', to the point where it's just gross and misleading to a point.



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:32:05 by Creek [g2 MR Ice Shreds] (#188551)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:32:24
@creek haha that too!! in addition to the more delicate points in my previous post, to some people (like us), the feb art is just plain gross


edit;; just to be clear, i don't think the art itself is gross (lions reproducing is just part of nature), but more the emotional/intimate implications of the context they set for the art are gross in combination with the art itself



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:33:46 by Kami (6.6K Ice 3xRos Svelte) (#124118)

Thalath {Offline} (#41669)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:40:47
"And you're very right, it is in line with an M-rated game, which is very problematic considering it isn't one haha"

That's... missing my point. Lioden is very close to just being a standard M-rated game. A lot of 16 year olds play M-rated games and watch R-rated movies. It's not illegal for them to view that content because it's not 18+. It's not "very problematic". It WOULD be problematic if Lioden was actually showing pornography to minors, which is why I mentioned the lion mating stuff being sketchy, because it might actually fall under that umbrella, which is why I agree that the lion mating stuff is very much pushing it.

Actually, everything I said there might be irrelevant. The UK uses the PEGI rating system, where games that would be typically be rated Mature (17+) may actually be PEGI-16, but I'd have to compare the ESRB ratings of certain games to the PEGI ratings to be sure.

tl;dr I don't like the lion sex shit either and I don't really think it needs to be in the game. I don't think Lioden is trying to peddle weird shit to minors intentionally or anything like that, which is another reason why the February shit kind of bothers me, because it kind of makes the devs seem like, to be blunt, fucking weirdos.

edit: Was looking for a way to rephrase that last part, sorry for all the edits.



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:50:46 by Thalath {online} (#41669)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:43:15
lol i think our opinions might be more in line than you think— my M-rated comments are geared more toward the sex stuff than the violence stuff

i want the violent/gore images included in the toggle simply because of its effect on users, and because lioden is not advertised as a graphic game in the slightest



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:47:04 by Kami (6.6K Ice 3xRos Svelte) (#124118)

Creek (#188551)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:45:17
Yeah! The sexualization of animals is just kinda... uncomfortable to see and if i had the option to, i would immediately just block the entire event's (February's) encounter images. Better that than no blocking the images at all. It's just weird to me how the site can be so incredibly detailed and strictly realistic with some aspects, but then turn it all around by perpetuating a thing that does not really appear in nature (the thought of animals having such awareness about reproducing and those activities, as if they were humans).

Rereading your previous post, I definitely agree how it's even more uncomfortable from the fact that human emotions are being mixed in with such reproductive behaviors seen in the wild, because it makes it more like i'm being placed into the lions' shoes (or paws, be it what you will lol). Lots of mixed feelings on that front.



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Thalath {Offline} (#41669)

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Posted on
2020-04-24 20:45:47
" lol i think are opinions might be more in line than you think— my M-rated comments are geared more toward the sex stuff than the violence stuff"

Oh, in that case, yeah. Some of the stuff is definitely a bit questionable for a game that isn't 18+. It probably only gets a pass "they're animals" and no genitals are showing I guess. Still kinda gross and not something people really want to see, regardless of that.

Anyway, to recap, I support the addition of a "disable explore images" toggle, for multiple reasons. Also I don't really know why people are so fixated on wanting to see gore and animals fucking.



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Edited on 24/04/20 @ 20:52:42 by Thalath {online} (#41669)

ratthew {G2 Torn
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Posted on
2020-04-24 23:27:47
Lots of good ideas going around here ! I really like the idea of hiding a specific events images, maybe also having a toggle for general images if need be? So it would look something like,

General/Year-round Explore Images

[Hide Explore Images]

January Event

[Hide Explore Images]

February Event

[Hide Explore Images]

March Event

[Show Explore Images]

April Event

[Hide Explore Images]

(The reason I have one of them say show is to show that I've already blocked March's event images, so they're giving me the option to show them once more.)

Personally, if there was an implementation where it listed every explore encounter, it would probably be best to have it categorized. For instance, having the same list (General, January, February, etc.) and list the encounters, which each have their own toggle. Beside the category it would have a toggle to disable that specific group of images, and at the top disable all explore images in general. There might also be a tag on or next to certain image descriptions that list if it is NSFW or not for ease of disabling.

While that could work, the original idea was so simplistic because that was what was needed immediately. There were LOTS of players I know who desperately wanted to participate in the March event, but couldn't, because of the gore present. I still believe a simple "NSFW" toggle could work, if that's all we can do.

I think if we could get a coder, whether it be one who works on Lioden or just someone who has general information about coding, that would help us decide which would be the best course of action.



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ratthew {G2 Torn
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Posted on
2020-04-24 23:31:53
Also just wanted to add that I've changed the topic name to better reflect our current goals. Thank you all for the support and ideas!



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